New fighting game player, some GG Xrd Questions

[flannelog]

OK, so lately I've been interested in fighting games from a viewer standpoint (without having seriously played one before), and finally I decided to pick one up (Guilty Gear Xrd) when it released on Steam. I'm having a lot of fun with the game, and got so into it that I ordered a fairly inexpensive fightstick and have been practicing with it for a couple days.

I'm familiar with some of the "terminology" of fighting games, like teching, mixups, wakeup, that sort of stuff (using numpad to describe inputs however, that's new to me haha), but there's a few mechanics to Guilty Gear in particular, and just things I didn't anticipate with fighting games in general because I've only watched them before, that I have some questions about.

To preface, I've been playing as Millia pretty much exclusively, bar when the tutorial had me playing as Sol. I really like her speed, and though I could be way off the mark, I think her mechanics favor aggressive playstyles, which is what I very much prefer in any type of game. Also, don't know how pertinent this info is, but I've spent around 15-20 hours playing the game so far!!

I practiced a good amount of the combos in Challenge mode and committed them to memory, as well as trying to improvise some stuff in training, to get a better understanding of Millia's moves. So with that being said, I'm pretty confident in my offensive play, but when I'm forced into defense the game gets a little more confusing to me.

For starters, when I can successfully block, I still have trouble finding openings/escapes to switch back to offense. I guess an example would be, recently I played against a Sol that was very aggressive and I'd often be put in a corner. If I'd block his combo, he would immediately start up with another. I tried to anticipate this gap in-between combos by using low sweeps, or attacks that come out quicker, but the low sweeps would get punished by moves from Sol that come out faster, and the jabs have such small range/priority that they proved ineffectual as well. Even worse, I would telegraph to my opponent that I was content with only blocking and he would respond with grabs, granting him openings anyway. So what I'm asking here is, what am I missing fundamentally that makes my defense so poor against competent players? I'd like to have a response to attacks that are specific to Millia (for example, if I see a certain move in a combo being used against me, what move should I use to respond?). I'd imagine, however, that the list of moves that I'd need to ward off, and the moves I'd need to use in response would be pretty exhaustive, so just advice in general would probably be the most helpful, at least in the immediate future. Pointing me in the direction of useful resources (videos, guides) that would help explain this would also be great!

Another thing is, there are some mechanics in the game I don't fully understand. One example being, I know when I use Dust+an Attack as I'm being attacked, that it knocks the person away from me so that I can get the pressure off of me. I don't quite understand the recharge rate on it, however. I haven't tested it exactly, but I have found that if I use this in the first round, then I won't be able to use it for the rest of the round, and possibly even into the second round. But there's a point when it comes back, and I'm not sure if it's timer based, or pressure based, or what! The blitz shield I haven't put practice in, but fundamentally I think I understand. I'd imagine it would help me find an opening when I'm under pressure. I'd also like to take this as an opportunity to say, this website's wiki has been pretty crucial in helping me understand some concepts from the game that I had no idea about from training. So that was nice!

Finally, air dashes give me a considerable amount of trouble. It took me awhile to train myself to air dash to the right with a fightstick properly, and I've got that down nicely, but jump cancelling to air dash to the left has proven to be very difficult to me. If there's a more efficient input, or if you have any advice when it comes to using a fightstick (I hold the stick in the "wineglass" method), anything would be greatly appreciated.

And that's all I can think of. I have a couple videos I've recorded of my matches played, and that would probably provide just as much if not more information about how I play than what I just wrote. If anyone reading this is invested enough I'd be glad to send you a couple videos and have you critique my gameplay! Unfortunately, I didn't have the foresight to record the matches with my inputs on the side, but if anyone is actually interested, I will record a few with that in mind, and upload them!

 

Thanks so much!!

[Marukujin]

Hey there. That was a really thorough explanation of the difficulties you're having, though some might see it as a lengthy essay. lol For starters, welcome to fighting games!

You sound a lot like me when I first started playing fighters. I say that because I also considered myself an offensive fighter, and having trouble in the corner in every aspect you described happened often against the better players.

I can't say for sure without watching you play, but beginner players often fall to anticipatory moves because they use the quickest move possible, which believe it or not isn't always the "best" way out. Even if you anticipate your opponent's blockstring gaps, keep in mind that they know their gaps better than you do, this Sol player may even be ending his blockstring early to purposely bait a jab or to quickly go to another blockstring.

You may find that countering with less regard for how long you must block may help you. Guessing is a part of fighting games too. When you start asking "what move do I use?", it may be a sign that you're thinking too much. Your opponent also has to guess from time to time.

Since you say you've been spectating fighters for a while, you may have heard terms such as "Plus on block" or "minus on block". These refer to the number of frames your opponent (or you) are "stunned" after having an attacked block (or blocking an attack).  Some fighters will end their blockstring early to start their next string of attacks quicker. The gap may not be where you think it is, and you will have to experiment to find the timing.

In reality, you often only have a chance of getting out of the corner once pressured in. There is no guaranteed way out sometimes, because they are covering as many bases as they can and accounting for the ways you can guess out of the corner, compared to your character who only has a few moves they can pull off from blocking. Certain characters are also much weaker in the corner than others to compensate for their expertise outside of it (keepaway characters often fall into this category). I would check with the sub-forum for Millia and get their experienced advice on the matter, but it would do you some good to show them your gameplay.

 

[gEasS_53]

Let me start with this:

Once you actually know the all the important consepts, blocking is the next hardest thing, and the one needing the most experience, simply because every player will attack differently, so even if you know the right move to do normally, you might get tricked.

The usual method for dealing with pressure from a certain character is the following:

1: You check out the frame data and mentally note which attacks leave your opponent at an advantage. It's usually going to be some Ps, or other moves with some tradeoffs like short range or slow startup. You remember the special cases(not the Ps, you want to wait for the pushback to do it's job) and then you don't try to counter when your opponent ends with those moves(since you're at disadvantage).

2: You remember the REALLY unsafe moves that the opponent can't cancel into anything. Stuff like Sol's fS at -11 doesn't count, since he could just get a 5H or a special out, and he got his frame trap. You go into training mode and see how you can counter said unsafe moves(if you're close the counter options are plenty, if you're further away you got your distance - win-win). In Sol's case, basically every special he has is so slow that you can just jump out or 214K on reaction(or better, Blitz shield it if the opponent is predictable).

The gap is always either after a fast normal while still close, or after a later normal that wasn't cancelled into a special. Take note however, that while after certain frames normals can't be cancelled into specials, it's never too late for jump cancels.

Don't try to find gaps with attacks, you'll get a frame trap basically every time.

 

For some specific Millia stuff(vs Sol):

I'll presume they are used after a blockstring.

Fafnir: Slow startup, you can mash or throw him out of it.

Bandit Revolver: If you're close enough that the first hit gets blocked, you can safely Blitz or roll out(and counter) with 214K->H. For the Blitz, you can basically mash it if the first hit gets blocked(don't make it a habit though, it WILL get baited).

Bandit Bringer: So slow, you can do basically anything if you notice it early. Throw him in the air, Blitz, dash behind, 214K->K->blockstring, etc.

214K(whatever it's called): Again, so slow, you don't need to worry about it unless your opponent is right in the corner. If you counter something with a 214K->H, remember he can easily get out with this afterwards if you don't account for it.

Vipers: If you managed to block them, free combo, yaaay.

All of this goes out the window if he's in Dragon Install, just block then.

If you see a Rapid, block.

 

About the Burst(Dust+normal):

It gets slowly refilled with time and also when you get hit. It's intended as a once per round thing, but it's a bit flexible about it.

If you hit the opponent while not in blockstun, you get full meter.

Also, if you get hit by a super or a command throw, you can't Burst out until you get hit again(this starts from the superflash, NOT from when the super hits).

 

I can't comment on the arcade stick specifics, I use a controller.

Good luck and have fun^^

 

PS: Apparently all it takes is a click for Steam friends to watch you play, so add me and I can give immediate feedback, and advice on what blockstrings to try in training mode. I have the game on PS3 :/

My Steam: Suntorias

[flannelog]

Alrighty, thank you both for your detailed replies, and willingness to help me out!! The responses to Sol's moves specifically were super helpful. I remember the guy I faced spamming fafnir, and now I'm almost embarrassed to see how easy it is to counter it, haha.

And Marukujin, that's some valuable information! I think it's pretty interesting how you said that once you get in the corner, there's no guarantee you can get out of it. And it makes sense to me! If you've been pushed to the corner in the first place, that means you had to put yourself in that position one way or another, so being in the corner is in and of itself a form of being punished for your play.

gEasS, like I said, that info on Sol's attacks is super helpful! And once I progress a bit, I'm gonna post in the Millia forum with some footage so that I can get some feedback. Also, helping me realize that I shouldn't try and find gaps with attacks is super helpful. Often what I'll do is spam attacks when I think there's a gap (which, in the footage I'm about to post, I'm pretty sure happens more than once), and then before my hurtbox can even come out, I just gave away any blocking potential and gave them a combo for free.

I'll add you on Steam soon! And yes, all you have to do to spectate people in steam is to right-click them in your friends list and click "watch game." The quality of the stream is pretty good, too!!

 

Anyway, here's a couple videos I recorded. First, one where things didn't go my way, and then one where they did. I'm pretty sure one thing in particular that I'm missing in my offensive game is using Tandem Top (236H/236S) whenever somebody is knocked down. I've read in a couple places that using the variations of it on wakeup is a good way to win a game off of 1 string. Of course, I don't think I'm anywhere near that level yet haha, but it's still something that is probably at the core of Millia's gameplay, so I should really condition myself into utilizing it. I also just realized I forgot to put the inputs on the side. Ugh.

If you have any criticisms, even if it doesn't have to do with my defense, please let me know!! Thank you!

 

 

[ViolaSorel]

Believe it or not blocking can be the easiest thing in a 2d fighting game as well as hardest. Lots of people make the mistake of overlooking defense and focus on offense, which becomes a huge weakness later due to those said players having a blocking pattern such as never blocking lows or only blocking lows, which at a higher level gets harassed badly if a opponent figures this out.

Blocking is a fundamental in any fighting games, so after 15 years of playing ALWAYS block down as default.

Why? mainly because it is the most defensive position to take due to it blocking both lows and normals and due to the nature of most games even GG, more then likely you can catch which move is an overhead just by looking. Assume all jumping attacks are overhead (as are Dusts) all you need to do to adjust is let go of the down button to block most overheads.

In GG since there are many defensive option in Xrd, you should master blocking down first before getting into Dead-angle, Just Guarding, Faultless Defense and Blitz Shield since they involve knowledge of block-strings, spacing and positioning. If you have any question about these just ask.

For Air-dashing jump cancel, the best piece of advice is try double tapping up+any direction you want to go, this how I learned to do some Millia combos.

As for Playing her, you should find more gatling combos that end with a knockdown so you can set up your ring. The reason to do this is it forces the opponent to block meaning at that moment you are free to either hit low or overhead or cross-up without them fighting back. Also don't over use Forward+HS or 6H since it is really predictable and can easily be punished if it whiffs. Use the projectile to get in close as distraction or if it hits on CH it stuns them for a Whopping combo

[flannelog]

Thanks for the response!!! And yeah, though I've only played this game for a small amount of time, I have started to notice just how efficient low blocks are. Considering most overheads I've seen have a pretty large windup, I almost always have enough time to correct myself if I'm blocking low to begin with.

Also, yeah, I've gotten a little too reliant on Forward+HS, haha. It became a bad habit once I realized most people around my skill level can't block it properly. The fact that it knocks down also made me like using it, though in a few matches this has already has come back to bite me; I'll use it, the person I am playing against anticipates it, and they get in close to me for free.

And using the dagger to startup combos, it seems like that's what it's made for now that you mention it, but before then I never really thought about it! Then again, this goes back to the fact that I am overusing Forward+HS... Usually if I hit dagger I just go braindead and use Forward+HS without thinking, when meanwhile I could've been getting a lot more damage out of it this whole time.

As for now, I'll try and practice blocking consistently, and try not to overload my head with too many strategies. Once I get a firm grasp on blocking consistently, that's when I'll feel comfortable with moving onto dead-angle, like you mentioned.

Your post let me articulate my thoughts a little better, and gave me a really good understanding of not only what my shortcomings are, but how I can work on them. So thank you!

[gEasS_53]

Whelp, so much to write. I think I'll omit some stuff, otherwise I could publish it as a book^^'

Regarding Fafnir being easy to counter:

Fighting games are VERY unlike chess, in that if you actually give one side the ability to properly respond periodically(every few frames or so), the counter move would be easy and obvious every time. The difference though is TIME. You need to respond before you can actually process what the opponent is doing, so mental awareness becomes a resource. If your opponent manages to keep you on your toes, it's easy to use a Fafnir over and over, even though it's laughably simple to counter if you know it's coming. This is what I meant by defense being the hardest, even though it's mechanically really simple, this spread awareness for the many possible ways attacks can come is a muscle that gets built from 0 with use.

 

Reading your opponent:

If you manage to identify patterns in the opponent's play, it takes away some of the mental burden from having to blindly guess and be ready for everything. If your opponent plays predictable, you can sort of start to play on auto-pilot and devote all your mental resources on identifying when he breaks his pattern.

This is also true the other way around(I'm looking at you, 6HS). Don't let players who are new and can't defend fool you about ANYTHING being effective, it will build some bad habits in you, that later opponents can abuse over and over until you stop doing it(not saying 6HS doesn't have it's place, just so much in the open).

 

A bit more on 6HS:

Whiffing any big move is a lot worse than getting the opponent to block it and you will probably eat a counter. Always make sure to only use moves that will hit(or be far enough). As for 214P, I know it feels useful for a fast approach, but remember never to use unsafe moves just like that. 214P is -13(oh yeah, do the same WIKI treatment with YOUR character first), so you'll be countered after it, or at least you have to retreat back.

[flannelog]

Hehe, alright, I'm making a concentrated effort to only use 6HS in situations where it makes sense. It's better to train myself to play without relying on it anyway, since in nearly every situation there is a better option than throwing out 6HS for no good reason. Also, I wasn't sure what you meant with -13, but I did look up Millia again on the wiki, and under 214P where it says -13, the column is Frame Advantage. So I'm assuming what that means is that after the move connects/is blocked, I have 13 frames of doing nothing. Though I could also see an argument for it actually being the amount of startup before the move is sent out? I guess maybe I need clarification on that, but either way, I get the idea that 214P both on startup and when it ends leaves plenty of room for the opponent to punish if I throw it out for no reason/overuse it.

And yeah, I can understand what you mean by the timing thing. Oftentimes what gets me flustered is seeing so many moves coming at me at once, so trying to process the moment where I can act can trip me up. Though I'm sure keeping a cool head and simply being aware of what moves leave openings can change the situation I'm in, for the better.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!!

[gEasS_53]

You're almost correct about what Frame Advantage means. It's 13 frames of you doing nothing after your opponent got out of blockstun and is free to do whatever he wants.

Short primer on frame data:

Startup is the part in the beginning where the attack doesn't hit(if your opponent is close and a move he has has less that 13, that means that you'll get an impossible to prevent counter hit).

Active is when the attack is able to hit.

Recovery is when the attack can't hit anymore, this is the part you omit when you cancel.

The whole duration of an attack is these 3 put together, meaning if you whiff a move that can't be cancelled into anything on whiff, it's not going to be -6(in 6HS's case), but a lot more(6HS lasts 47 frames total). The only reason that's not instant death, is the fact that that's still less than a second and if it whiffs, the opponent probably isn't in a position to get close fast enough(unless he jumped it over, then you're screwed). You can test stuff like this as well in training mode. You set the AI to some stuff you would normally do(say, the raw 6HS), then you try and see how what you can do about it. Is it easy to jump over the opponent and just start a whole combo from the other side? Can the move slow enough that you can just run up afterwards?

I know I bring up 6HS a lot, but it's important to understand why certain moves are wrong(instead of "X move is wrong, don't do it" "ok, X move is wrong"), and 6HS is just such a good example of many pitfalls.

If you're trying to throw, but you're not sure if it will hit, you can do the option select with another normal(I think the tutorial actually covered this one).

[ViolaSorel]

If you ever need any tips or advice just ask. as for a few tips for millia, you should use secret garden when you are not in range for tandem top. Also rolling behind your opponent after placing a tandem top, confuses the opponent to move forward instead of blocking. Lust shaker provides extra meter due to its multiple hits, so use it when you need extra meter.

[flannelog]

Thanks guys! I've been practicing these past couple days with what you have all said in mind, and it's making a big difference. I'm more confident in my in-game decisions, and I've noticed a few times now that defense has seemed a lot easier as long as I don't get too flustered or eager to spam. Viola, your advice in particular about using forward roll after tandem top has been a really useful tool. It almost always catches them off guard, and it gives me a lot of room for followups!

One thing though that I think I still need to practice is getting a successful Tandem Top combo after I've knocked my opponent down. What I mean is, usually if I can get a knockdown (normally through either a grab or a low sweep/2D), I try 236H into 2K, and that's where the combo would start, but oftentimes people will wakeup with crouching jabs, and that stops my offense. So if I know they're going to wakeup with jabs once I throw down a Tandem Top, what's the optimal way to react? And am I just not being quick enough?

I guess now that I've written it down and have taken the time to think about it, a good way that I think to react would be to throw down tandem top and then dust, or to tandem top and then j.236P to fake them out. That way later when I use Tandem Top on knockdown they won't be sure of my next move, and I can use that to my advantage with various mixups.

And now I'm kind of getting into character-specific issues instead of game related stuff, so... if I have any questions about Millia after this, I'll go ahead and take to the Millia subforum. I think now, though, I have a firm enough grasp on the character where if I have an issue with something, I should be able to figure it out through experimenting.

 

Thanks again everyone!

[Zouf]

Millia is (to me at least) probably one of the hardest character to use in the game.

She's top tier, no question about it, but she's very hard to manage. Why is that? Because you need to be really good at neutral game, which is one of the hardest thing in a fighting game.

To answer your question, after sweep / throw > 236H, your opponent shouldn't be able to mash anything. You are not fast enough. 

From what I've seen in your video, you throw too many stuff at random, expecting them to hit your opponent. This is what most new players do, and this is probably the worst thing to do in a fighting game.

All your moves are meant to hit your opponent, whether it's to open them up, start pressure or a combo tool. For exemple, 6HS isn't meant to be thrown in neutral game. It's a combo ender, to get orb oki.

Same with 214p. It is used to open up your opponent after 236H. Throwing it like this in neutral is just asking to get punished.

In a more general way, whiffing = dying. Do not whiff moves. Get in your opponent face and only then start pressing buttons. That is where you will start pressure and think on how you'll catch him off guard.

Also, do not be passive in neutral. Always be in movement, this is very important. Mobility is key, especially for Millia. As I could see, you are too focused on watching your opponent doing his stuff, or thinking what will be your next move. No, your next move is to get on his face and only then do your stuff.

The last thing I can tell you here, is to go to training mode, set the dummy to "block everything", and press buttons on him do see what your possibilities are. It might be a bit boring, but as I said, you really need to get used to pressuring your opponent.

NB : lastest thing : please use japanese voices 

[gEasS_53]

In general, your opponent usually has the tools to just mash out of your oki, you have to find a way that punishes them for it. So far for me, David Sirlin's advice of "if you only ever learn one combo, make it the one for punishing reversals" has held true, even in Guilty Gear. You have to make your opponent understand that not respecting your oki is PAINFUL. Once you do that, they'll be much more passive and you can do your mixups. If they are stupid and continue to mash, they die.

[flannelog]

Zouf, that's interesting what you said about Millia! When I decided a character to practice in this game, I tried out a few moves on everybody to see how they felt, and that's how I decided on Millia. Usually I try not to let tiers influence which character I choose, because in games I've played in the past that has led to me having a bad time. League of Legends, for example, is a game that I stopped playing because once I adapted to the meta and started playing high-tier/fotm characters, the game got a lot more boring. When I had the most fun was when I was playing characters with fun or interesting mechanics. If any of you know enough about the game, characters like Veigar or Gragas have fallen in and out of the meta at times, but are consistently fun or interesting to play, so that's what I'd usually go for!

And yeah, I was hoping it wasn't the case, but I figured that I wasn't being fast enough getting out low kicks after Tandem Top if the opponent could react in time. I could blame online latency since I seem to do well with it offline, but that's just an excuse. I should be able to adapt!

I am glad, though, that it seems everyone's been getting on my case about throwing out 6HS in neutral. I mean it! Being new to fighting games, I didn't immediately have a grasp on when moves were effective, or why. That's something learning combos couldn't really teach me; I could get down the timings for all of the combos in challenge mode until I could do them over and over, but that leaves me with 0 information about neutral game. From my limited experience, I'd say the most important part is finding my way to actually getting to my combos. Otherwise I've got nothing!!

Also, the thing about constantly staying in motion, I see what you mean! It's better to keep my opponent under pressure than to give them room to breathe. And this even goes back to the fact that I've put a lot of time into practicing combos! Even if I do manage to land something big, my followup can be pretty shaky, and that's something I really want to work on. The reason I'm standing still is because I'm usually thinking "OK, what next?" When in reality, I should already know what to do next without having to think about it. Considering Millia is such a fast-paced character, I think this could turn out to be a critical flaw in my play if I leave it unchecked, so I'm glad you brought it up!!

And finally, I'll take your advice about training mode! I actually think one of the more fun things about this game is experimenting on my own. Though it has led to some flaws in my play (for example, overusing 6HS, haha), it has also led to me realizing some stuff about Millia that I think is much more rewarding than if I had just looked up all the combos online or something. So, maybe it's the novelty of it, but I don't think I'll be bored going into training mode! I'll get to practicing and hopefully see some results soon! Wish me luck!

Oh yeah, as far as the language pack is concerned, I never bothered to change it, but I probably will change it to Japanese, haha. Surprisingly, I do like some of the English voices of the cast, but hearing some of the voices after awhile gets a little grating. I also think Millia's inflection is kind of weird at times, especially in her victory speeches... Oh well!

 

gEasS, that's sorta what I expected! I actually had an opponent recently that, when I'd knock them down, would block/react against the last thing that I hit them with when they were on wakeup. That was one of the first times I felt like I was actually reading my opponent, haha, and it made me realize how playing a real person is so different from playing a computer. If they're cognizant of the game's mechanics, they try to adapt, and you can even use that to your advantage! So in that respect, if I can get good punishes off with my oki, that should really leave an imprint on my opponent, and like you said, they either have to go passive or lose!

 

I'm super grateful that you've all sent me such detailed responses! I haven't been a part of this community for long but so far it's been wonderful! Thanks so much!

[gEasS_53]

15 hours ago, flannelog said:

gEasS, that's sorta what I expected! I actually had an opponent recently that, when I'd knock them down, would block/react against the last thing that I hit them with when they were on wakeup. That was one of the first times I felt like I was actually reading my opponent, haha, and it made me realize how playing a real person is so different from playing a computer. If they're cognizant of the game's mechanics, they try to adapt, and you can even use that to your advantage! So in that respect, if I can get good punishes off with my oki, that should really leave an imprint on my opponent, and like you said, they either have to go passive or lose

This is one of the most fun things in fighting games when done right, especially when you get to pull off ridiculous stuff like 3 throws in a row against a proper opponent(yes, that does mean you got a random throw, THEN you got another one from an empty jump that didn't get mashed out, THEN one again the same way, because who the hell is stupid enough to actually go for a third one).