worldjem7 Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 So, any ideas on how to do this match-up? I felt like I couldn't do anything. Then again, I've only started playing Ragna, but this thread wasn't made anyway. Any ideas?
VR-Raiden Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 I've only played this match a few times so far. One thing I noticed is if he does 5C > 6C, and you try to Inferno Divider© the 6C, it will actually clash at the first hit, so weird stuff can happen there. I'll try stuff and add more later.
VR-Raiden Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 About that annoying 6C of his: 6C takes a primer and is +6 on block. Which means it's still +1 on instant block. You want to react to, and avoid this move. If he does anything into 6C, you can ID, CS, or BK to avoid it. If he's far away, it will clash with the first hit of ID. If neither cancel into anything, you score a CH with the 2nd hit. If you cancel into another ID, you get a CH. I couldn't find anything he could do to avoid being hit by ID from that clash other than RC and block, so when you see that clash you can just mash out ID's. CS beats it clean at any range. BK avoids it but he recovers fast enough that you can't get a punish. If you instant blocked the attack before 6C, you can CH 5A him out of it. Note he can't cancel into 6C from any lows. In general it seems like IB'ing is really important if you don't want to be stuck in pressure all day (no way). IB'ing his 5C probably helps a lot in this match, creates an opening to ID for anything he can do. Special punishes: 236C (overhead uppercut) is -10, you can get a free 5B but it's a pretty far hit, so you won't be getting a mean punish unless you dash into it. Ground super, if you instant block the last hit it's an easy dash FC 2C combo. Normal blocking, he leaves counter hit state by the time you get to him, but you can still get 2C into pain. Air super, easy dash FC 2C punish. Also, watch out for instant overhead j.C after blocking a 5B.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Generally speaking, I think ID rapes Valk because of how his dodge movements work. I tested way back when Valk first came out on JP PSN to see if his mixups could avoid reversals through the use of the backwards wolf shift, and ID just stays out too long for him to avoid it that way, he flies right back into it. If you ever suspect a wolf shift, just ID. Bit of theory in that, but it seems consistent with testing that I've done. Also, supposedly 6C is backdashable on reaction? Need to test more.
VR-Raiden Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Also, supposedly 6C is backdashable on reaction? Need to test more. Oh that's true actually, I tested it before and didn't get it to work but tried again just now. If you do the backdash late enough it will avoid it entirely.
Guardian Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 I played this match up a TON the other day, and since the valk mods won't let anyone post, I'll post my findings here for you guys. IB destroys alot of Valk's pressure, but not all of it. 6C is a concern for everyone, but the main pokes you should worry about are 5C, j.C, 2C, and 6B. If you learn to 'see' his transformations, then you should use the 623D to try and catch him, as he can do multiple wolf backdash feints(4 or 7C in wolf) to make you whiff the C version. When he starts using multiple backdashes though, that's when the match gets....interesting. Don't count on ID too much though, as he has A LOT of hidden tactics that bait DPs/Supers/Reversals. His j.C stuffs all of your ground pokes except 6A. If he has 100%, you're looking at anywhere from 5.5k-6.7k from anywhere on the screen. Once you get into 5B range, you can go to town, b/c he has NOTHING for that move. When you get in, stay in, keep him in the corner and rape. He can only guess wrong 3 times (2 if you have enough for a Blood Kain combo) Max range 5C is really good to counter your 5B, but Ragna's 5C can also beat that out. Don't use 2D alot, as he can punish with 5C for a HUGE combo. After awhile, the match turns into a well played chess game of who can get the first hit. I personally think the match up is 5-5, but the person I played believes it's 6-4 in Valk's favor b/c of Valk's movement, mixup and dmg potential are all greater than Ragna's. I think it's 5-5 b/c of 5B. My God what a retarded move. Regardless, take my ramblings for what you will.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 (edited) I personally also think it's 5-5 and comes down to whoever gets the first hit, though I need to play some better Valks. I think Ragna has an advantage in that he's not as free on defense as Valk is. Conversely, Valk does way more damage...but they both have shit life and Ragna has life regain, sooooooo I dunno. Guardian, how do you feel about Ragna mashing 5A against transformation mixups? From training mode testing, it seems like that pretty much shuts down anything Valk might want to do, but I could be testing it wrong. Edited November 25, 2010 by TITANIUM BEAST!!!
GenoWhirl Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Mashing 5A works but, IIRC, shouldn't 7D (which has invul) > j.B beat it?
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Mash 5A -> wolf dodges with 7D or 4D -> continue mashing 5A will probably still work. It actually works better if the Valk just does fastest wolf j.A or j.B after a transform without tricky movement, since there is a much smaller gap for interruption.
Guardian Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Guardian, how do you feel about Ragna mashing 5A against transformation mixups? From training mode testing, it seems like that pretty much shuts down anything Valk might want to do, but I could be testing it wrong. The problem with mashing 5A vs transformation mixups is that if they choose to do a 3D cancel from something like a shoulder, your 5A will whiff and you can get CH command grabbed or hit w/ [w]5A into combo. ID is your best bet if you just HAVE to do something. This is on block mind you. If you get hit, you HAVE to guess unless you're gonna ID. 5A will get beat if you get hit by 236A~wolf pokes.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Depends, I've had 5A trade with [w]j.B after transform on hit. j.A should work fine though. Also, on hit, if you suspect 3D cancel, you can 2A to stop that clean. On block, you can 2A as well, and if they 4D or 7D cancel to make 2A whiff, you have time to 5A as they come back in.
Guardian Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 2A will beat a 3D cancel true, but it's a guessing game that's not in your favor, b/c [w]j.b will beat your 2A. It's a 50/50 on both counts, and this is if you 'see' the transformation, which isn't going to be very viable vs a Valk that doesn't do the normal braindead pressure i.e. 5b, 5c, 236A~5/2D, etc
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Hrm, so it looks more like a santaku (3-option) to me. Something like this: 1. ID (beats 5D and 3D shifts, loses to 4D shift) 2. 5A (beats 5D shift, safe against 4D shift, loses to 3D shift) 3. 2A (beats 3D shift, safe against 4D shift, loses to 5D shift) 3 is arguable, because 2A often trades with 5D shift to [w]j.B on normal block, and most definitely wins on instant block. So we're basically talking about on-hit situations here, otherwise the whole scenario becomes murky. What qualifies as Valk's "real" pressure? I know repetitive 236A pressure is not very legit against better players, but the 6B and 6C variants don't seem much better for transformation-based mixups, which is part of the reason I feel Valk is somewhat overrated. People gawk at his damage, but honestly, I think IB -> mash defeats a lot of his offense.
GenoWhirl Posted November 25, 2010 Posted November 25, 2010 Yo Valk real pressure is doing wtf shit like 7D 7D j.A 5A dash j.A Command grab :V
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 I can tell pressure during wolf is legit. That shit can get really crazy.
What Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 IBing and mashing 2a, whatever does easily stop most of his non wolf pressure but what I really had trouble with was when he was mid range wolf and dashes at me. I could never tell if he's going to hit me with a high or a low attack. Also does his ground super have invincibility or is it just really fast like tsubaki's?
advancedNoob Posted November 26, 2010 Posted November 26, 2010 Valk is like 2nd Litchi. He excels at everything, range, damage, mobility, mixup, air attacks, anti-air attacks. On top of that if you get caught in his command grab, that's 6K+ of unburstable damage. Yeah, his super is has invincibility at start and works well as a reversal, too. Can't wait for his nerf!
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 (edited) IBing and mashing 2a, whatever does easily stop most of his non wolf pressure but what I really had trouble with was when he was mid range wolf and dashes at me. I could never tell if he's going to hit me with a high or a low attack. Also does his ground super have invincibility or is it just really fast like tsubaki's? I think ground super has some invincibility, but it's still not a very good reversal. Midrange wolf dashes can be good, but they're mostly better for getting a quick whiff punish, rather than starting pressure. The high-low doesn't seem TOO bad, I guess dash -> cancel -> [w]5A is a pretty good low. Just dunno how fast it would actually be in a match. Valk is like 2nd Litchi. He excels at everything, range, damage, mobility, mixup, air attacks, anti-air attacks. On top of that if you get caught in his command grab, that's 6K+ of unburstable damage. Yeah, his super is has invincibility at start and works well as a reversal, too. Can't wait for his nerf! Don't exaggerate. He's certainly no Litchi or Bang. This characterization completely ignores how he folds under pressure; the character is so good offensively and has so much mobility because if you catch him blocking, he's in deep trouble. Also, command grab is only 6K+ damage with meter or in the corner. Try not to make things sound worse than they are. Edited November 30, 2010 by TITANIUM BEAST!!!
What Posted November 30, 2010 Posted November 30, 2010 (edited) Midrange wolf dashes can be good, but they're mostly better for getting a quick whiff punish, rather than starting pressure. Exactly but I mean to say that's where he seems to capitalize the most on when I fight him, at least for the few valk's that i've played so far. (I dunno probably just need much more matchup experience) Other than that though to me it seems he's not quite as good in the footsie department and him jumping in to ragna is for the most part suicide. Edited November 30, 2010 by What
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted December 8, 2010 Posted December 8, 2010 Yeah, I played Zidane's Valk at NEC and it confirmed most of my feelings on the character, he's really sick when he gets a hit in but otherwise he is overrated. I think 2nd Taokaka is a pretty good description, minus Tao's ridiculous mixup potential and add a shitton of damage. 6C as a standalone poke is fantastic, gotta find an answer to that. IB is your friend in this match.
Arvoyea Posted December 8, 2010 Posted December 8, 2010 I played against Valk at a session I was at last Saturday (on PS3). The guy usually plays Jin, but he was switching around. I stuck to Rags, just to start learning about the matchup. I didn't have much problems honestly...when I was blocking of course. Not sure what he was using (haven't tried Valk yet), but I was able to block most of Valk's stuff easily. The overhead can kill you though. The main thing is to be aware of him in the air, he doesn't have much so 6A/ID will help. I was better than usual and it's all vague due to it being a long day. I don't know if there are any character-specific combos for Valk. ...We need to talk more about stuff other than combos. ;_;
WolfCrimson Posted December 8, 2010 Posted December 8, 2010 Ok, I don't have Valk on my PS3 yet (was broke till now) so I haven't tested this, but: is doing a Hell's Fang legit against wolf form? Like if he's coming at you (wolf-dash), or trying to mix you up, couldn't you just Hell's Fan into him? I'm aware that he can't block during Wolf form, and Hell's Fang has nice horizontal range, and could theoretically hit him if he tries to jump or backdash. Can someone test it out?
Arvoyea Posted December 8, 2010 Posted December 8, 2010 Ok, I don't have Valk on my PS3 yet (was broke till now) so I haven't tested this, but: is doing a Hell's Fang legit against wolf form? Like if he's coming at you (wolf-dash), or trying to mix you up, couldn't you just Hell's Fan into him? I'm aware that he can't block during Wolf form, and Hell's Fang has nice horizontal range, and could theoretically hit him if he tries to jump or backdash. Can someone test it out? I'd just stay safe and prepare to defend and punish accordingly when he's in wolf form. Don't wanna get counter hit by Valk of all people because Ragna can't take a hit well...and I don't know about wolf form specifics yet. Sorry, that's all I can say about that.
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