Guard Bar Experiment results

[shtkn]

After Kaizen's post about guard bar and getting some free time, i've finally done some experimenting as well and have the following results to share:

First, it is assumed you know the basics of how the Guard Bar works as described here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Damage_(GGACR)#Guard_Gauge I'm writing up my findings more formally there as well, but it is currently incomplete.

Guard Balance

*Every character's Guard Balance value (listed in teh system data section of the wiki) affects how much their guard bar raises on block:

For example, Sol has a Guard Balance of 1 so an attack with GB+ of 20 would raise Sol's Guard Bar by 20. Meanwhile Anji has a Guard Balance of 1.25, so that same attack would raise Anji's Guard Bar by 25!

*Already being in blockstun reduced GB+ by half, so blocking two GB+ 20 moves in a row would only raise your guard by by 30.

Air GB+

*Air Normal blocking increases the base amount of GB+ each attack deals:

Level 1: +0

Level 2: +1

Level 3: +2

Level 4: +3

Level 5: +5

Note: air specials, supers, and attacks that have GB+0 do not gain this bonus!

Basically this bonus GB+ only affects normals and ground specials that are air normal blockable

Consequently, a LOT of the GB+ values are wrong in the wiki as they were probably testing GB+ on jumping opponents. i'll have to go through and change them later . If you'd like to help me, please let me know!

GB+ Testing Methodology:

In training mode, we know every character's guard bar flashes when set to +65. I used this known value and tested blocking different attacks to see if i could get the guard bar flashing.

for example, Ky's 6H has GB+ of 20. Setting Sol to block this with Guard Balance set to +45 does get his bar flashing. Setting it to +44 did not. Therefore we know ky's 6H does indeed have a GB+ of 20.

using the same attack against different characters netted different results and allowed me to calculated Kliff and Justice's Guard Balance ratings were.

Kliff = 1

Justice = 0.85

GB- Testing Methodology:

Thanks to kaizen's work, we know we can't use flashing guard bar as a fair point of reference, so i tried something else out:

did stupid 2 hit combos and raised teh guard bar in increments until the second hit experienced no damage scaling.

also of note the guard bar at -1 still does not scale damage! so for example, Ky's 5P is 8 damange and GB- 8, so setting the guard bar to +7 and doing the 2 hit combo 5P > 5P to Sol should do 16 damage (and it does!).

doing this is obviously very tedious and you must account for any initial/forced proration, the aforementioned Guard Bar -1, and defense modifier if your tests require someone not named sol.

doing this allowed me to find out that ky's lighning strike now has a GB- of 25 and his 6H has a GB- of 13! These values were listed as -30 and -17 respectively in vanilla GGAC.

[Skeletal Minion]

---ABA Guard Gauge values---

Below are the GB+ values I've verified for A.B.A. If someone could edit them into the Wiki, then thanks. Numbers in parenthesis are for specific hits of the move, for example, 6H(2) is referring to the 2nd hit of 6H.

---Normal mode---

Standing

5P: 3

5K: 6

c.S: 10

f.S: 11

5H: 20

5D: 8

Command

6P(1): 10

6P(2): 10

6H: 20

Crouching

2P: 3

2K: 5

2S: 10

2H(1): 10

2H(2): 10

2D: 8

Jumping

j.P: 3

j.K: 8

j.S: 8

j.H: 11

j.D: 8

Specials

236K: 15

236S: 10

-> 46S: 10

-> 63214S: 20

-> 236K: 15

236H: 0

63214H: 3

air 63214H: 3

Supers

632146H(1): 20

632146H(2): 20

632146H(3): 20

air 632146P(1): 11

air 632146P(2): 11

air 632146P(3): 11

air 632146P(4): 11

Instant Kill

236236H: 14

---Moroha---

Standing

5P: 3

5K: 6

c.S: 14

f.S(1): 14

f.S(2): 14

5H(1): 20

5H(2): 10

5D: 8

Command

6P(1): 10

6P(2): 10

6H(1): 20

6H(2): 20

Crouching

2P: 3

2K: 5

2S: 14

2H(1): 20

2H(2): 20

2D: 15

Jumping

j.P: 3

j.K: 8

j.S: 11

j.H: 15

j.D: 8

Specials

41236K: 20 (tested on normal air block)

236S: 10

-> 46S: 10

-> 63214S: 20

-> 236K: 20 (tested on normal air block)

air 41236S(F): 0

air 41236S®: 0

63214H: 3

air 63214H: 3

623H(1): 14

623H(2): 20

421H: 20

Forcebreaks

236D: 0

623D(1): 14

623D(2): 14

Supers

6321463214S: 20

632146P(1): 20

632146P(2): 20

632146P(3): 20

632146P(4): 20

-> 214K (1): 15

-> 214K (2): 15

-> 214K (3): 15

-> 214K (4): 15

Instant Kill

236236H: 14

---Goku Moroha---

Standing

5P: 3

5K: 6

c.S: 14

f.S(1): 14

f.S(2): 14

5H(1): 20

5H(2): 10

5D: 8

Command

6P(1): 10

6P(2): 10

6H(1): 20

6H(2): 20

Crouching

2P: 3

2K: 5

2S: 14

2H(1): 20

2H(2): 20

2D: 15

Jumping

j.P: 3

j.K: 8

j.S: 11

j.H: 15

j.D: 8

Specials

41236K: 20 (tested on normal air block)

236S: 10

-> 46S: 10

-> 63214S: 20

-> 236K: 25 (tested on normal air block)

air 41236S(F): 0

air 41236S(B): 0

63214H: 3

air 63214H: 3

623H(1): 14

623H(2): 20

421H: 20

Forcebreaks

236D: 0

623D(1): 14

623D(2): 14

Supers

air 632146P(1): 20

air 632146P(2): 20

air 632146P(3): 20

air 632146P(4): 20

-> 214K(1): 15

-> 214K(2): 15

-> 214K(3): 15

-> 214K(4): 15

Instant Kill

236236H: 14

Edited September 8, 2013 by Skeletal Minion

[shtkn]

skeletal minion: anyone can edit the wiki, no account is needed. you just need to answer a captcha each time you make an edit, and your ip will be recorded.

also, did some testing with flashing guard bar, and i think it works as follows: if your guard bar is flashing, then any hit takes an additional GB- 10. an exception to this is throws that do not CH on flashing guard bar (ex sol's ground throw, ky's air throw). throws that can CH (ky's ground throw, sol's air throw) do the additional GB- 10.

as far as the inconsistencies kaizen noted: i tested 5D my way and found that most dusts have a GB- of 22 which would line up with this rule perfectly. i also got different numbers for sol's air normals and they are consistent with the GB- 10 rule as well. tested in Vanilla AC... sol's 5D is GB-22 there as well... maybe the frame data is just plain wrong across the board for 5Ds...

the inconsitencies i found was Ky's 6H (it took only an additional GB-9 instead of 10) and ky's 222H is taking an extra GB-11...

anyways, the GB-10 thing seems mostly consistent when you account for the strange way that only some throws can be CH.

[Final Ultima]

If it helps people with their testing, the method I used to determine GB- was to see how far away from -126 (which is the amount at which the Guard Gauge appears to be visibly empty, not -128 as you might expect) you have to set the Guard Balance to have the Guard Gauge appear empty when the move connects.

For example, if you set the Guard Balance to say... -106 and the move you're testing empties the gauge on hit, then you set it to -105 and there's still a sliver of the gauge remaining, the move has a GB- of 20.

Unlike GB+ with blockstun, GB- does not scale with additional hits dealt during hitstun either, so this should work for moves with multiple hits as well. Just be sure to check the individual hits anyway in case they've been tweaked but the total GB- across the whole move remains the same.

[Kaizen]

I seriously have no idea how I failed to consider testing GB- from the negative side. Good call.

Used this to test Justice's GB- values. Doing Kliff tomorrow, hopefully.

Also,

[Veteru]

After Kaizen's post about guard bar and getting some free time, i've finally done some experimenting as well and have the following results to share:

Thanks for getting this formally started shtkn. With the release of GGAC+R, certain people decided to inappropriately reuse the guardbar values from GGAC for the +R Wiki. While I'm against that, I also didn't want to have to take the time to check all of the new values myself.

BTW, Final Ultima had already researched the new values for Sol (He had a few moves GB+ values nerfed, such as 6H and BB), I'll ask him to post it up here for everyone's convenience.

Guard bar increase being halved during blockstun is generally well known, and is the explanation for why some characters can raise the guard gauge so much more effectively than others. Blockstrings like Ky 5S 6H (5S 3H in AC+R) which have a built in gap followed by another high GB+ value move are great for this purpose.

[Final Ultima]

Alright, I'll post the Sol changes here too. Everything's already up on the wiki (Character Page, Frame Data Page) for those that want to check the GB+ and GB- of any move not listed here (that is to say, moves with unchanged GB values).

To avoid confusion, move names both here and on the wiki currently use the names from the English command list in AC+R.

6HS: GB+ down from 20x2 to 10x2[20x2].

j.K: GB+ down from 6[10] to 5[8].

j.S: GB+ down from 10 to 8.

j.HS: GB+ down from 10x2 to 8x2.

j.D: GB+ down from 14 to 11.

Aerial Volcanic Viper (DI) - GB- down from 7x3 to 7,6x2.

Ground Viper - GB- down from 1x6,7x2 to 1x6,7,6.

Bandit Bringer - GB+ down from 20 to 15.

Sidewinder - GB+ down from 20 to 15.

Fafnir - GB+ 14, GB- 10

Slam (during DI only) - GB+ 8, GB- 20

Tyrant Rave - GB- up from 3x4 to 7x4.

FB Sidewinder - GB+ 15, GB- 20

Edited September 14, 2013 by Final Ultima

[shtkn]

Final Ultima: i'm getting very strange results with testing the guard bar. with your way, i get a GB-20 for sol's 5D, and with my way i get GB-22... i don't know why this is or which way is more accurate. only 5D has this problem, all other attacks seem to be consistent between your method and mine.

edit: just checked an there's additonal GB- added in combos, try testing it out my way with using -1 as a reference point and you'll see it too. rules for it are very... hard to discern

at flashing guard bar first hit got extra -10, second hit -12, third -15

at a little over even, first hit got no extra gb-, second and third hits got extra -1 or -2

it's very strange, i'll have to test more later if i've got the time