[CS2] Ragna General Discussion

[FlyingVe]

DbD was always a gimmick though. Using it effectively (aka by itself) was gimmick tech traps. I wouldn't say CT Ragna was a high risk/high reward character because you could still get good damage off of a lot of hits. If anything, CS Ragna is higher risk, but that is currently negated by his huge meter gain from a BnB.

I wouldn't say CS Ragna is higher risk. After all, he's basically the same with some improvements on a few normals (5B, 2C, 6A, ...). Also, while CT Ragna could get damage off alot of hits, I wouldn't go so far as to say good. Almost all of the easy things to hit people with (Max range 5B, 2A, 6A, ID) didn't yeild much damage. On the flip side CT ragna's mixup attacks did really huge damage (6B>4.6k, Throw>4k). If anything they just made his damage more consistent (and a but higher on average).

DbD is most definately a gimmick. One that can usually be mashed out of, costs 100 meter, and a chunk of your life. I don't really think that qualifies as good. It can still be a fun punish thought. See the end of this match (I know it's old).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cIJJXNUiik

[WolfCrimson]

Well, I can agree with you on DbD being somewhat of a gimmick, but hey, no character is complete (and fun) without gimmicks. And didn't it feel satisfying to land it?

CS Ragna doesn't feel riskier than CT Ragna to me.

A lot of his normals were buffed, in recovery and proration, particularly 5b and 2c. And like you said, he has his huge meter gain to give him heat for rapids, CA etc. His average damage is higher, too. I remember being able to net ~3.2 k damage with a 5b starter in CT, now I can get 3.8k (if I go for Not Over Yet after only 1 belial) or 4 k (if double belial, but I don't like that combo ), good meter gain and prop them up right in front of me for another beating. It also helps that his out-of-BK life gain was fixed, it wasn't well implemented in CT.

Oh, and I take back what I said about giving DbD 1.5k min dmg and lifegain, make it 2k for both!

So, in summary, CS Ragna's a bit safer and does more damage than CT Ragna.

EDIT: Flying Ve beat me to it

[Spirit Juice]

The only reason I said that is mainly due to damage. CT Ragna's damage off of mix up was bigger than CS Ragna's. While Ragna's pressure in CS improved thanks to some buffs to his normals, his mix up options are largely the same and the damage is less than CT, although more consistent in CS. That's why I'm saying that if Ragna didn't have huge meter gain, he'd be riskier than CT Ragna due to his weaker damage off of his mix up options.

[WolfCrimson]

Mix up... you mean his high/low mix ups, or his mix ups in general?

[Seifuuku]

i don't think ct ragna could get 4k from regular gh and something like 4.5k from tk.. though ct ragna got 5k from tk gh ch

[FlyingVe]

Mix up... you mean his high/low mix ups, or his mix ups in general?

Mixup is anything that forced the opponent to make a defensive reaction. In this case, 2B,3C,6B,GH,TKGH,Throw. CT Ragna got mad damage off alot of these, but not so much off his normal pokes, plus he had NO safe way to end a string. CT Ragna was also in a game where the high tiers butt raped him (and most of the cast for that matter). He's much better in CS, partly because alot of what shut him down is gone (or weakened).

[-Ladon-]

CT Ragna got mad damage off alot of these, but not so much off his normal pokes, plus he had NO safe way to end a string.

6A and 3C

[FlyingVe]

6A and 3C

A jC is pretty safe, but loses alot on IB, But I wouldn't put it in the same league as an actual safe attack (like the current 2C).

[-Ladon-]

instant air barrier block made JCs extremely safe, especially when you make them think you're jcing off the 6A and go into 3C afterwords

[Janiekenzu]

I dont know about you guys.

But Do you think Ragna is over Powered to an Extent.

He can pull 4k Easily meterless. But its not so easy with Hazama/Jin

[WolfCrimson]

No, not Ragna. Just his 5b and BE.

[Spirit Juice]

I dont know about you guys.

But Do you think Ragna is over Powered to an Extent.

He can pull 4k Easily meterless. But its not so easy with Hazama/Jin

Right now, Ragna is only fairly strong due to his damage (which does require him to be upclose) and meter gain. His mix up can all be reacted to, and his pressure doesn't last very long. If he couldn't do double BE combos (like in CS2, among other nerfs he has), he'd probably be B tier.

[huey253]

Right now, Ragna is only fairly strong due to his damage (which does require him to be upclose) and meter gain. His mix up can all be reacted to, and his pressure doesn't last very long. If he couldn't do double BE combos (like in CS2, among other nerfs he has), he'd probably be B tier.

haven't you seen east coast tier list, HE IS B tier.

[prokiller88]

Well, without the double BE combos ragna would drop to about A-. Assuming thats the only thing that gets nerfed. Hes sitting at A+ comfortably otherwise. If 3C doesn't force emergency tech with air hits then he would drop to about B+.

[huey253]

Let's do this.

All numbers in this chart are 100% correct.

japan/ec tier list has him pretty mid right now.

[Seifuuku]

.. if double belial was removed, not much would change tbh, unless they mess with something else while removing double belial. you sacrifice oki for a bit more life steal, 5-10 more meter, and 100-200 more damage..

like sj said ragna is high because of damage and meter gain

[-Ladon-]

Well, without the double BE combos ragna would drop to about A-. Assuming thats the only thing that gets nerfed. Hes sitting at A+ comfortably otherwise. If 3C doesn't force emergency tech with air hits then he would drop to about B+.

considering that double BE in no way would effect any of his matchups, this is hilarious

[prokiller88]

considering that double BE in no way would effect any of his matchups, this is hilarious

the double BE could finish off someone if you needed to. Double BE gives a lot of heat, which again is useful for pressure and finishing off people. Double BE is also very, very useful in pushing people into the corner... if you can land it midscreen.

[Janiekenzu]

You know.. I really Dont Bother using Double BE. Considering ending my combo's in GH is more benificial to me. Because of the Chance of a Tech Trap.

[FlyingVe]

You really should use the double BE... Ragna doesn't have true tech traps.

@Ladon: the existence of double BE doesn's affect one matchup more than any other, but it does make Ragna a much stronger character over-all. Which in turn, affects all the matchups. Bottom line, it is defiantly a big part of why Ragna is good in this game, but not the only reason.

[Seifuuku]

the double BE could finish off someone if you needed to. Double BE gives a lot of heat, which again is useful for pressure and finishing off people. Double BE is also very, very useful in pushing people into the corner... if you can land it midscreen.

i am too lazy to start my console and check, but the heat gain is minimal.. something like 5-10 more. it is a good idea to use it yes, but removing it will not change ragna's game to the point where his tier drops... and single belial into 3c 5d hf takes them to the corner too.. also single belial->CS (2 hits) is more than double belial->CS (1 hit) and you only need something like 10 heat or so at the start to get meter for CS for single belial anyway..

[prokiller88]

That is true, but when you use 3C 5D HF it depends on how close you are to the corner already. If you hit them at mid screen, you have to run to them and they just neutral tech then get out of the corner.. if they aren't tager.

Also I'm not really talking about using CS after the combo, its more on his pressure game tbh. 2D is not safe, GH is for sure not safe, 6B is telegraphed like theres no tomorrow, 2B good but short range and bad p1 and 3C is great.

[Seifuuku]

run up 2b->2c/5c will catch forward, backward and quick tech into good damage.. i don't see your point :|

you said double BE is good because it can finish because of a bit of extra damage.. i mentioned CS because afaik you can only get 1 hit of CS in with double belial while single lets you do both hits always

i don't know why you're bringing up his mix up when we're talking about belial/double belial

[Spirit Juice]

EC match up chart is actually kind of funny because of them putting Lambda higher than Arakune, Carl, and Ragna. x100

Also saying Ragna vs Lambda is 4-6 for Ragna is hilarious too.

[FlyingVe]

I think that list is as much trolling as it is an honest chart, but 4-6 Ragna (in Rags, vs Lambda) seems about right to me. It's easier for ragna to get in than in CT, and the damage difference is pretty huge.