[Xrd] Leo Whitefang vs Faust

[DaRealZil]

(Placeholder) 

 

Discuss the Leo vs Faust matchup here.

[Kikuichimonji]

List of moves that Faust can crawl forwards underneath: 5P, 5K, cl.S, f.S, 6P, 6K, stance 214S, j.S, j.H, the first hit of 63146H

Moves good for smacking him out of crawling forwards: 2P, 2S, 5HS, 2HS, 6HS, 5D, 2D, rekka, any backturned normal

 

On standing Faust, bt.S > bt.H does not combo. However, it combos fine on crouching Faust.

 

The matchup, in ten words or less: Damnit Faust get over here so I can kill you.

 

Faust's f.S gets CH stuffed by Leo's 6P which combos to rekkas (but probably not 5HS at the range you'll use it to counter-poke)

 

Leo's 6P can beat Faust's j.2K according to my training mode analysis, but it has to be fairly early or you'll lose on startup. 2HS will generally trade, and converting it into a 6HS on trade is awkward because of the range.

 

Faust has no fast buttons to interrupt Leo's offense, so he has to rely on blocking, 1-frame jump, risky forward crawl, his highly punishable 236236S super, invincible frames on 5D, and Blitz Shield to get out of Leo's offense. Don't let him out of the blender. Many of Leo's standard strings just automatically OS his 5D on wakeup because Leo's strings come out on block or whiff (eg 5P > 5K), and Leo's 6K recovers in time to block the 5D. However, you need to be especially aware of Faust's options because getting kicked out of close range will often guarantee a loss on your end.

[Maho]

Round start 2H will beat fS (favorable trade at worst), 5K and 2H, only loses to 2D, it's pretty risky though as you can get punish quite hard (6H) but it's interesting to do sometimes to make him think about pressing buttons there as CH 2H really hurts. S fireball is another decent choice, loses to instant j2K but will beat/trade with a good number of standard round starters.

 

S fireball is actually really strong in this matchup, Faust doesn't have a fast air dash so it's not as risky as in most matchup to do it without YRCing it, it's really strong against his fS keepaway and also beats 236K, just be sure to not do it too much when you're too close as a low j2K can CH you. Of course Faust can bait it with a 214K but it's really a hard read as it has slow startup, and his TPs aren't really a good idea in this matchup.

When you see a TP, just wait a bit and throw out a 5H, with the right timing it will CH all 3 TPs, you can even CH YRC doors or at worst hit the YRC startup, note that specials won't autocorrect if he TPs in your back but normals will, 214S YRC is safe for Faust but also for you as you'll recover in time before he's in range to hit you.

 

If you 6P a j2K, there's a character specific combo that will do a bit more damage than the usual one : CH 6P > 6H > 236H > jP jK > djK djH > j236H, you can replace jP jK with jS for a bit mire but it's not as stable as it can whiff at some ranges.

[sbakana2]

What's leo best anti air?

[Kikuichimonji]

What's leo best anti air?

H Eisen Sturm, but it's unsafe and requires charge. 6P is good if you get it out early. 2H leads to 200 damage on CH if you are at the right range to combo from it with 6H 236H 5K cl.S j.K (jc) j.K j.H j.236H. However, 2H requires you to throw it out even earlier than 6P, and you can't combo from it without CH or RRC. You can cancel it to H Eisen Sturm on normal hit, but you're usually not going to have charge in this situation.

Both 6P and 2H can beat Faust's j.2K, but they have to be done very early when Faust is still high in the air.

[AFRICA]

Sigh if I were sol I would have just DP, but with Leo it's hard to time 6P early when I am being rushed by Faust!

[Kikuichimonji]

Sigh if I were sol I would have just DP, but with Leo it's hard to time 6P early when I am being rushed by Faust!

Dude, Eisen Sturm is even bigger than Sol's Volcanic Viper. I never wish that Eisen Sturm were better when I'm playing Leo.

[AFRICA]

Yeah true but you can't use it on reaction. It is a charge move... DP isn't!

[Kikuichimonji]

Yeah true but you can't use it on reaction. It is a charge move... DP isn't!

Just because you can't use it at neutral doesn't mean you can't use it on defense. You should be blocking low and reacting high against Faust. It's not like you won't have charge. Reacting to moves like Faust's j.2K is actually easier/faster with Eisen Sturm than VV, just hit up and H and you get it.

[AFRICA]

You got a point there...

[TheDarkHer0]

How do we aproach Faust ? I am really having a bad time getting close without losing half HP :/

 

And when I finally start pressuring him I seem to always ALWAYS get destroyed by mini faust, what can I do when I hit a confirm and I see that little guy coming right to my face ? 

[greatfernman]

the matchup is ass. leo doesn't really have an easy time getting in on faust. you just have to get in somehow and hope you stay in.

 

and once you get in, your meterless stance oki is a blow up because you have to guess between him doing all the regular stuff other people have like throwing, blitzing, backdashing, etc. and he has a frame 1 invul dust yay, you can OS the dust but it then loses to other options so on so forth

i think the matchup got a little better now that in 1.1 we have actual mixup in our favor if we spend 25 meter on H sonic boom YRC (thanks to it's slower speed), but do note that H sonic boom YRC jump late airdash vs empty jump low corner mixup doesn't work if you use j.P on faust thanks to his crouching hurtbox. you have to use j.K against him, which is a better starter, but airdash j.K is totally reactable, I recorded it on random and I could block it pretty much all the time even though my reactions aren't particularly great.

 

in regards to mini faust, if he's coming at you you just drop the combo and block or jump, or if you have the charge, combo into DP.

[Kikuichimonji]

You can just whiff bt.K and do it again on whiff (or bt.D it) to punish wakeup Dust from Faust unless he YRCs it. You can punish that on a guess with a slightly delayed bt.P. In my opinion, Faust is actually REALLY bad at getting out of Leo's offense. All he can do is try to punish you for being predictable, and if you call his dust out with a YRC he's probably eating a full combo.

This is a matchup where Faust has very little to stop you from doing H Fireball from completely full screen. If he runs away hardcore, throw a H fireball and react to his escape (which will probably be a super jump or an air dash over it). He can try to react to your fireball with a door teleport behind you, but that's not really a good option.

Leo does better in this matchup when he tries to occupy the opposite zone that Faust is in. For example, jumping is pretty decent if Faust is grounded, but Leo can't beat Faust air to air without frame advantage. Faust also outpokes Leo on the ground at midrange, but if you get a lucky j.K on his f.S you can get a full combo out of it. Leo's 6P is an acceptable risk against Faust's air options, especially if you can threaten H Eisen Sturm anti-air.

Lots of Fausts rely on Leo respecting the threat of Faust's footsies without actually enforcing it. If the Faust isn't trying to keep you out with grounded pokes and is instead relying on Faust's air priority on moves like Faust's bag projectile and j.2K, don't be afraid to whiff a 236H to close the gap. If he's doing an immediate air j.2K or f.S, that will obviously beat the run, but otherwise it's a great way to close the gap.

[greatfernman]

well like i said you can just os the dust, but that's another factor you have to deal with on oki, along with the universal ways people have to disrespect leo's oki, and dust yrc is the devil. the fact that leo has to guess even more when his guessing game was already bad is terrible.

he can stop you from doing H sonic boom by hitting you in the startup with his super long normals.

jumping in on a grounded faust is a stupid idea. faust has THE GOD antiairs and he WILL blow you up if that's your go to strat

 

also i don't know about leo's new 6P, that might beat j.2K but in 1.0 it definitely didn't

[Kikuichimonji]

well like i said you can just os the dust, but that's another factor you have to deal with on oki, along with the universal ways people have to disrespect leo's oki, and dust yrc is the devil.

My point was that you don't have to OS to punish Dust, you can punish it on reaction after seeing yourself whiff.

he can stop you from doing H sonic boom by hitting you in the startup with his super long normals.

Not from maximum screen distance, his f.S doesn't have the range. Scalpel pull whiffs too. This range is pretty common in my experience.

jumping in on a grounded faust is a stupid idea. faust has antiairs for days and he WILL blow you up if that's your go to strat

While Faust can totally anti air your j.k on reaction every time, he can't play footsie at the same time. You can just lazy jump at him and check if he did a big punishable footsie move, and if he didn't just air dash or double jump backwards to relative safety. It's not a solid way in because those don't exist in this matchup, but jumping towards Faust is a useful alternative to trying to 6P or 2H his f.S.

also i don't know about leo's new 6P, that might beat j.2K but in 1.0 it definitely didn't

6P totally beats j.2K clean if you throw it out earlier. It works now, and it worked in 1.0. You're probably hitting the 6P too late. You can also 2H the drill if you get it out super early.

[greatfernman]

I don't think you understand. That's exactly what the os does. On hit it combos on whiff it punishes. You're not understanding why having to account for another option is bad even though we have an answer.

If he's at full screen just letting you chill out and throw a fireball then he's not playing footsies well. That's more a player fault than the character.

He can actually just stand out of your 5h range and wait. Just okay off what you do, he doesn't need to continuously whiff f.s.

Idk about 6p beating drill so I'm not going to comment.

[Kikuichimonji]

I don't think you understand. That's exactly what the os does. On hit it combos on whiff it punishes. You're not understanding why having to account for another option is bad even though we have an answer.

I think your answer is bad. If you're relying on the OS to beat the dust, you're committing to bt.K > bt.P every time (if you're speaking of the OS I think you are, which is bt.K> bt.P~S). This deletes many of Leo's best mixup options because bt.P is a really bad stopping point, so the best you can do is bt.K > bt.P > delayed bt.K or bt.K > bt.P > bt.H. Simply committing to a single bt.K gives you more options on block (like bt.K > bt.K or bt.K > bt.H or bt.K > dash through bt.K).

Just because you have an OS to beat an option doesn't mean you should use it every time. Now, if you were talking about whiff 2P > 5K gatling to punish the wakeup Dust, that's an option I use all the time because that leaves you in a significantly advantageous situation on block. Leo's stance knockdowns are a valuable resource and you need to try to get as much damage as you can while you're close to Faust.

 

If he's at full screen just letting you chill out and throw a fireball then he's not playing footsies well. That's more a player fault than the character.

Faust is going to try to maintain max range f.S because that's his best range against Leo. Every Leo player is expected to run forwards. If, very occasionally, you retreat a bit (say after blocking f.S > item toss) and throw a H fireball, you can help negate the really hard battle of getting from 2/3rds screen to 1/3rd screen. If your argument is "well he's just going to run forwards and hit f.S," that's exactly what I want him to do because that forces him to approach me, and I can take advantage of that in other ways, like jumping forwards, S fireball YRC, or dashing forwards with 5K/f.S. I really think you're overestimating the willingness of most Faust players to advance on Leo.

 

He can actually just stand out of your 5h range and wait. Just okay off what you do, he doesn't need to continuously whiff f.s.

If he's sitting there reacting to what I'm going to do, then I can just dash up f.S to get him blocking and go from there.

 

Idk about 6p beating drill so I'm not going to comment.

Test it in training mode if you don't believe me. I was surprised it worked too.

I'm not going to say the matchup is even for Leo, because it's not. But you're actively shutting down every idea I put out there, and these are the ways I play the match-up with moderate success. This would be fine if you offered an alternative way to play the matchup, but you seem dead set on the idea that since everything Leo does is punishable by Faust, you can't make good decisions. All you've suggested is "don't do these things."

[greatfernman]

That's not how oses work? You're not stopping at p you're stopping at s. If you can actually consistently react to the whiff of stance k and still confirm if it does hit then okay good job. Him having a dust still forces you to account for it either way and skews the wake up game, you're still missing the point. As I have said before, 1.1 Leo has more legit oki against Faust with 25 meter, I'm just commenting on meterless stance oki, which is terrible against Faust. You can just go for nonstance oki really, I was honestly just talking about meterless stance oki.

You doing h sonic boom is actually the slowest thing ever. If you get away with it continuously at neutral idk what to tell you. I think s sonic boom is better and the change in 1.1 made this (and the sin matchup) easier as a result, but while h sonic boom is nice if you can get it out, the startup is actually free.

I legitimately just didn't comment on 6p, not saying I disagree with you.

I'm shutting down your ideas because they're wrong IMO and I'm not offering alternatives because there really aren't any. You literally just struggle in neutral in this matchup until you get in, his options destroy yours so you have to just out neutral him somehow or be random or something. Once you get in it gets easier but he still has backdash throw blitz dust etc
Not to mention his crouching hurtbox makes stance h easier to react to and invalidates corner airdash land low mixup. He can also crawl under almost every standing normal, which isn't that big a deal but its still there as an option.

All in all you can make good decisions against Faust, its not like it's a unwinnable matchup. But these decisions are based on who you're playing and not on Leo having a tool than outright helps against the character. You honestly just have to beat the player because you can't beat the character in a controlled situation

[Kikuichimonji]

That's not how oses work? You're not stopping at p you're stopping at s.

https://youtu.be/tFOXMyBvmUo

[greatfernman]

i meant you dont stop at p you stop at s.

i probably phrased it badly but i dont know how else to phrase it and i just woke up sorry

as in k ps s

as in there's no reason to stop on P

 

from s you get true blockstring into H or you can do whatever else

 

though i guess from p you can catch mash against h with k. idk

 

edit: i'd just like to add that i said meterless stance oki is terrible against faust, but it really is just not good against most characters. and dealing with faust 5D isn't like worse than dealing with a DP character (aside from 5D YRC), but it's still bad

[Kikuichimonji]

i meant you dont stop at p you stop at s.

i probably phrased it badly but i dont know how else to phrase it and i just woke up sorry

as in k ps s

as in there's no reason to stop on P

I wouldn't actually stop at bt.P unless I was intentionally trying to do something weird, but I can confirm the block and go into bt.K, which is +1 and allows me more offensive options than bt.S.

from s you get true blockstring into H or you can do whatever else

bt.S > bt.H isn't a guaranteed blockstring, especially on crouching opponents. If they crouch or IB during bt.S, the bt.H hits meaty, so they can reversal blitz or whatever. Also, your options after they block KPSH are really bad because you're outside of bt.S range, so you're placing yourself at a range where you have weak pressure options in a stance during which you can't block.

I actually really dislike bt.S > bt.H on block. I think just stopping at bt.S is stronger, because even though you're -1, a follow-up bt.S is extremely dominant at that semi-poking range since it's a blazing 6 frames startup.

edit: i'd just like to add that i said meterless stance oki is terrible against faust, but it really is just not good against most characters. and dealing with faust 5D isn't like worse than dealing with a DP character (aside from 5D YRC), but it's still bad

I really disagree with this. There at a few really good answers to stance, like VV RRC and backdash YRC, but most of the guessing games that people try to run against Leo in stance are actually better for Leo's risk/reward than the actual mixup, and you can mix in soft reads to real 50/50s to keep people seriously guessing.

The only way Faust can get away with stuff like 5D YRC is by doing stuff riskier than blocking occasionally, like attempting to throw Leo, blitz, hitting his slow 2P, or fuzzy jump. Leo has mixup strings that just auto bait each of these and they're incredibly easy to execute, which helps put the onus on Faust to make the good call defensively. Faust has to have super strong defensive instincts to break Leo's offense apart, and Leo can just change his flow to blow up Faust for that mindset. Like you said, Leo definitely has to play against the player more than the character, but defending against Leo's offense consistently is as difficult as defending against I-no's when executed correctly.

[greatfernman]

I really disagree with this. There at a few really good answers to stance, like VV RRC and backdash YRC, but most of the guessing games that people try to run against Leo in stance are actually better for Leo's risk/reward than the actual mixup, and you can mix in soft reads to real 50/50s to keep people seriously guessing.

The only way Faust can get away with stuff like 5D YRC is by doing stuff riskier than blocking occasionally, like attempting to throw Leo, blitz, hitting his slow 2P, or fuzzy jump. Leo has mixup strings that just auto bait each of these and they're incredibly easy to execute, which helps put the onus on Faust to make the good call defensively. Faust has to have super strong defensive instincts to break Leo's offense apart, and Leo can just change his flow to blow up Faust for that mindset. Like you said, Leo definitely has to play against the player more than the character, but defending against Leo's offense consistently is as difficult as defending against I-no's when executed correctly.

Leo has to call out blitz, backdashes, dps, throws, his overhead is reactable (even though it's not slow), and his crossup dash can be OSed.

that's a shit ton of options you have to account for. sure the opponent has to guess. but that's to be expected since you got the knockdown, other characters in this game have ways to completely shut down multiple options at once to the point where they dont even have to think about the opponent attempting them, leo sort of kind of has that now with sonic boom yrc (though you still have to guess between blitz fuzzy jump etc etc).

 

leo is honestly nowhere as hard to block as i-no, that's a huge overstatement. i-no is actually unreactable and can go overhead multiple times with very very janky rhythm. her vcl yrc, note and ff vcl are varying degrees of blitz safe and dp safe. leo's stance overhead is reactable, he can't throw in stance (though if they're respecting too much 22>throw is actually not that slow anymore), you legitimately just tap FD low using your fastest crouching normal's button so if he crosses up he gets hit (also use H so it can throw as well), react to high and once he's been pushed out of low range you block high. leo does not have strong meterless stance oki. sure people are going to be opened up, it's not complete ass mixup, but leo just has to take so many guesses when he's already earned the knockdown in a game where knockdown is really ridiculously advantageous for other characters.

[Destin]

Meterless for other characters is that much stronger than leos?  I mean, I can think of a few.... but I'm much more scared of leo knockdowns meterless than many, he's at least in the upper 50%.  He just doesn't have a one shot, it's like pressure with constant mixup in it.

[greatfernman]

For other characters centered around oki, yes.

[Destin]

For other characters centered around oki, yes.

Leo has a pretty decent neutral.  It's not great, but it's certainly not bad.  He has the only whiff cancelable poke normal that I can think about.