[Xrd] Sol Badguy Okizeme/Mixups/Gimmicks Thread (Updated 02/14/2015)

[Destin]

When do you guys use meter for inputs, and when do choose not to? Character specific?  Meter specific? Are there any cold and hard rules for it?

[Kikuichimonji]

When do you guys use meter for inputs, and when do choose not to? Character specific?  Meter specific? Are there any cold and hard rules for it?

Dude it's Sol. If we knew exactly why we do everything we do then we'd be playing Ky or Zato instead of Sol and acting like we're smarter than everyone else. You've just gotta do it when you think it will work. Hard and fast rules for this don't make sense because it's a gimmick that you do to make another gimmick (low air dash) more legitimate. Raw YRC is a pretty strong tool in general because the slowdown gives you a significant advantage, and if you see they're already in the windup of an attack you can just uppercut it.

 

If you want to try to eat their reversal with YRC, it's probably because you know they have a tendency to challenge your mixups. And note that they can still uppercut or whatever after the YRC. I've done it to Zatos that YRC to change the reversal timing for the unblockable. At the very least, you'd do it when you have a lot of meter to spare. It's almost strictly worse than Gunflame YRC, so that's why I call it a gimmick.

[Destin]

Uhhh, I was drunk when I worded that, I meant, when do you choose to use meter at all, including Gunflame yrc.

[Kikuichimonji]

Uhhh, I was drunk when I worded that, I meant, when do you choose to use meter at all, including Gunflame yrc.

A lot of it for me depends on if they have burst. Early in the round, I'm willing to RRC for a combo even if they can burst just to get it out of the way. If they don't have burst, I want to take advantage of that window and land a hit to knock them into the corner and potentially win off the next hit.

If you knock them down in the corner, always doing GF YRC is fine. If they're impatient in blockstrings, just frame trap them into a hit confirmed RRC combo. If they're willing to block lot, I choose either to build a lot of meter or burn it and try to end the round.

Sol can't improve damage that much with meter, so mostly he uses it for pressure and stuff like GF YRC. Just make sure you're getting value for your meter.

[LockedAndClush]

Uhhh, I was drunk when I worded that, I meant, when do you choose to use meter at all, including Gunflame yrc.

A lot of how you use your meter is determined by the resources available to your opponent (health and Burst) and their habits.

Picture this: you have 10% health, 50 tension and your opponent has about 30% (let;s assume they're in the "average" defense/guts group, like Sol) and a Burst. 

You get a c.S>2D>BR combo in the corner. What you can do using your meter falls into two categories:

a) extend your combo with RC>j.D>Fafnir or 5HS>dustloop or whatever you want

b) use YRC to get Gunflame okizeme, to make a tick throw WT safe (not gonna work as well after the new patch rolls around, but still works), try some Fafnir YRC WT shenanigans, to make your safe jump stronger, throw off their reversal or get some breathing room... generally go crazy on their ass remaining relatively safe

If you pick a), you'll most likely end up both losing 50 tension and getting Bursted, which can lead to a potentially deadly situation when you're back to neutral and have no meter to come back at them. It's unfavorable. And even if they don't Burst, you might not be able to get the kill with the combo after RC. Sure, some opponents will just eat that combo and then easily get hit afterwards, but you shouldn't be assuming your opponent plays poorly for the sake of such theoretical discussion.

Picking b) does make you work for that last bit of damage a little bit more, but it gives you resources to do so and, if you play it smart you'll remain Burst safe or, even better yet, you might steal their Burst (WT is a great Burst bait in such situations - just WT>2HS>jc. and either block or try to throw; even if they don't Burst you can still try to get a knockdown with VV after jHS). YRC gives you two big chances to pressure and mix them up, and it should be used.

Of course you can also just get the BR knockdown and Dragon Install. But you shouldn't (kappa Sol Dragon Install lol).

 

As far as neutral usage of meter goes, YRC GF is not too useful at range. You should keep your meter for reseting pressure when you're closer to your opponent, because even when they block your c.S or f.S and you cancel into Gunflame, you can get a YRC easily and just keep pushing them into the corner. Also, any time you can use meter to make yourself safe is a good time. A blocked GV (should never happen, but we all know it does happen), VV or a bad BR (done to close with your opponent stand-IBing it), all these things can, and for the most part should be RC'd (of course you have to be fast to get a RC with GV and VV, because you can't YRC and PRC these). Converting stray hits into knockdown with 5HS RC BB is never a bad idea per se, but if it's possible to get a 2D, BR or any other knockdown, I prefer to keep my meter. But if you really want to turn the tide and your opponent doesn't have a Burst, go for it. Or if you want them to lose their Burst - most people just go for it once they see Sol players do that. Kikuichimonji makes a good point with using meter to force a Burst like this.

On defense, Sol has strong options thanks to VV, so a Dead Angle Attack is not something you'll see all that often. If you want to get out of pressure you can just go HSVV>RC for the most part. If they block, you get the momentum, if you hit, you get a beefy combo. Of course you cannot use VV to get out of a safejump this way. You can also just use Blitz Shield, but it's pretty difficult to do so and it can be baited. FD is also essential, because it will allow you to push your opponent out of the range of their pokes, forcing longer startup moves that can be punished with VV or just plain keep pushing them out until you can reset back to neutral.

As far as Overdrives go... I love my Tyrants and Installs, but there are select few situations where they are worth it. Tyrant Rave is good at disrespecting people's okizeme - it will even go through another Sol's Gunflame oki on hit. It's not too safe and good players will even punish you between the two hits, so you have to be careful of when you throw it out. If you get a 2D in a corner, however, go for a Tyrant Rave right away - get that unburstable damage and follow up with a 2HS>Dustloop combo to boot. Does some slick 240-something damage if I remember that right.

I use Dragon Install too much... it is the ultimate risk-reward gamble in the game if you ask me (except picking Potemkin of course). It should only ever be used when you're either confident you can get to your opponent, sit on a 100 tension so you can RC back to safety after something or you're just feeling lucky. Having a Burst also helps. There's nothing worse than getting a fat combo in the face when in DI only to land and get another one.

Gee, that turned out long. I hope I didn't just spew some bullcrap, lost in my favorite kind of fighting game playing - theoretical one.

EDIT

Also, there's empty YRC and it's uses (throwing off inputs, creating breathing room etc.), but I never really used that much, so I can't really comment on it much.

[VR-Raiden]

One of the things I treat as pretty much a hard rule is when I have tension and land a knockdown in corner that grants the best GF YRC jump-in mixup, I'll almost always do it. Seems pretty strong and either high or low combo will build the tension back.

I almost always RC f.S/f.S>5HS hits when I have tension for it, huge carry and knockdown where you wouldn't get it otherwise.

2D BR combos are mostly worth it when it brings deep into corner early I feel (lIke j.D Fafnir etc range), I've started not doing it as much otherwise.

Other than that I can't think of much that doesn't depend on quite a few things.

[Gramas]

so apparently using gf link instead of 6p after fafnir in corner combos grants perfect spacing for gf yrc oki after kudakero > VV

 

still character specific ofc 

[Kikuichimonji]

2D BR combos are mostly worth it when it brings deep into corner early I feel (lIke j.D Fafnir etc range), I've started not doing it as much otherwise.

2D GF RRC combos do a lot more damage and give better options on block if you can confirm the RRC f.S. They work from much farther away, too.

[VR-Raiden]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxTOyJc9sGw

Tutorial with details on the basic corner GF YRC mixup.

[HlDEKI]

I haven't seen this discussed yet.

On the last Sonic Boom, Dogura used 2D as an empty jump and confirmed it into Tyrant Rave à la 3rd Strike.

 

Here's a basic setup:

 

K (1 hit), c.S, 6P, HS, jc.D, j.D > Fafnir > dash 6P, HS, jc.D, Break > 6P, BR. (empty jump) 2D, TR > 2HS, jc.D, j.D > Fafnir > dash 6P, HS, jc.D, Break > HSVV>TO.

 

This sequence damn near kills half the cast.

The confirm is pretty doable too. Think of Chun's cr.MK xx SAII timing if you're familiar with 3S.

[VR-Raiden]

Yes that is definitely worth knowing. empty 2D does have some advantages over 2K. More range, more (unburstable) damage with tension and only 1f slower, at the cost of worse pressure if blocked. It is certainly hit confirmable to TR, I like inputting as 632D146HS for it to get TR out fast when you see it hit.

And if you're midscreen or too far for TR combos, it leads nicely to GF RC combos.

[SynikaL]

Yeah, I've been using that sequence for a while now. The Dust loop after Tyrant Rave > 2H is of course, finicky against certain characters. I've been toying around with initiating it from c.S, because that seems to be more consistent in those situations where 2H seems variant or finicky.

 

The other thing that's great about the combo starting with 2D is the lack of damage scaling. There's 0 proration. I've been trying to find other good combos that start with normal hit 2D due to this. One possibility is YRC Gunflame, getting 2D out ahead of the Gunflame and allowing GF to combo afterwards. It leads to damaging routes, but I haven't found any viable setup for it yet.

 

 

-Kimosabae

[VR-Raiden]

I remembered something that I still don't understand and wondering who else has noticed it and your thoughts.

In Xrd if you do a deepest possible meaty j.S/j.HS (probably any jump-in though), it is possible to be reversal ground thrown by the opponent on wake-up. I do not remember this ever being a thing in XX games, but I could be wrong. It can happen with multiple characters doing the meaty or waking up.

It doesn't make sense to me because if the air hitbox is active you shouldn't be on the ground, and therefore shouldn't be throwable. Am I wrong? Is there a frame of strike invulnerability on wake-up or something?

Yes, it's easy to avoid by timing the jump-in so that you get it slightly higher up. But I am curious since I don't even understand why it can happen at all. If you're airborne when your attack connects, how are you throwable?

[Hollysmoke]

I remembered something that I still don't understand and wondering who else has noticed it and your thoughts.

In Xrd if you do a deepest possible meaty j.S/j.HS (probably any jump-in though), it is possible to be reversal ground thrown by the opponent on wake-up. I do not remember this ever being a thing in XX games, but I could be wrong. It can happen with multiple characters doing the meaty or waking up.

It doesn't make sense to me because if the air hitbox is active you shouldn't be on the ground, and therefore shouldn't be throwable. Am I wrong? Is there a frame of strike invulnerability on wake-up or something?

Yes, it's easy to avoid by timing the jump-in so that you get it slightly higher up. But I am curious since I don't even understand why it can happen at all. If you're airborne when your attack connects, how are you throwable?

You're not wrong. That was in the patch notes that they're fixing.

[HlDEKI]

I was getting thrown out of j.S on a weekend session last Saturday, wondering what the hell was going on.

Didn't know this was an issue in the first place. Hopefully it will indeed get patched.

[D.R.F.]

^ probably getting thrown out the startup. Happens

[VR-Raiden]

You're not wrong. That was in the patch notes that they're fixing.

You mean 1.1 patch? So it should be fixed in arcades? I'm glad that is being addressed because it's silly you can get ground thrown out of an air move at a height that would be ideal for frame advantage.

On that note, been playing more characters with good throw OS buttons like Venom/Elphelt c.S/throw more lately. Jump in oki feels so much weaker. If they mix up doing reversal Blitz to catch meaty and reversal c.S/throw. It can get pretty annoying since many of the options that beat one of those loses to the other. Something fun you can do to blow up either is jump in DI then DP through their button or punish Blitz whiff. Empty jump VV should work as well as long as they don't throw your landing frame. Also have had some success jumping a bit earlier than meaty safejump timing then doing airdash j.P to counter their OS mash. If you try air dash j.P at regular meaty timing you tend to lose or trade at best with 5f stuff in my experience. But I've started favoring just plain old GF oki if I'm losing the mind games often on their wake-up.

[Hollysmoke]

Yeah there was some weird geometry bug in the game engine that was causing that. They also posted that they were making certain OTG and ground tech bug fixes. I can try and find the patch notes. They were on a JP blog somewhere.

[HlDEKI]

Yeah. If you hit an enemy with an OTG 2K and they burst, even if you read the burst and jump to block it, you don't get a punish afterwards because the engine still thinks they're in OTG state.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

That's been in the game for a while though. You can still airthrow, IIRC, which is different from OTG Burst in older games.

[D.R.F.]

I think airthrowing the otg burst deals otg damage too. Needs to be verified though, because I am not for sure

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Another question would be, if the opponent is low enough after the airthrow, do you get a combo, and if so, is that combo subject to OTG state/scaling?

[VR-Raiden]

I'm just trying it now, wasn't sure either, but the OTG Burst grab is subject to OTG scaling. It only does 16 damage, and doing RC > BB allows them to air tech immediately and does crap damaage.

So I was curious what would happen if you WT the OTG Burst recovery, and it seems like it's the same as any WT. Should mean that the optimal OTG Burst punish is IB > WT. Ground throw RC combos work fine too.

[Final Ultima]

I think airthrowing the otg burst deals otg damage too. Needs to be verified though, because I am not for sure

Yes, if the opponent bursts before the wake-up process starts, they are still considered in OTG state and take 30% damage, which effectively means...

 

Another question would be, if the opponent is low enough after the airthrow, do you get a combo, and if so, is that combo subject to OTG state/scaling?

You do not get a full combo. You can hit the opponent, but as they are still in OTG state, they will tech immediately.

Edit: What's that old saying? "You wait ages for a mod, and then two show up at once?"

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well theoretically the OTG Burst recovery is until landing, so I dunno if the WT in that situation is guaranteed or not. It may be possible to reversal in that situation.