[CT] Hakumen vs Carl

[ryokoalways]

They bait with Con Burio (sp?), not with "not doing anything". And qwerty is about right, as scary as it is to be stuck between carl and neesan, without clap loop and hp, hakumen will make quick work of carl. Not to mention neesan dies in 1 6c > shippu. If you hit neesan with 6C and have 4 magatamas, kill that bitch.

[rtl42]

kinda unnecessary, but just fyi, it's "con fuoco" (music term that means "with fire; in a fiery manner").

[ryokoalways]

Thanks. Better to be corrected than to be wrong.

[MisoSowee]

They bait with Con Burio (sp?), not with "not doing anything".

And qwerty is about right, as scary as it is to be stuck between carl and neesan, without clap loop and hp, hakumen will make quick work of carl.

Not to mention neesan dies in 1 6c > shippu. If you hit neesan with 6C and have 4 magatamas, kill that bitch.

huh? if you tech immediately they either inputed the clap or they didn't. You j.D if they did, run away if you didn't. If you mean they did drill arm special instead of clap than yeah, you should probably block. Heck you could just air dash forward and even if you do get hit by it, you'd just get knocked down, he'd get a j.B maybe, but he can't follow off of it because of its recovery. You could j.D it too, but... meh.

and i love killing neesan with 6c-shippu. It makes baiting gear's much easier and when you bait a gear, you can barrier block (or normal) till you're not blocking, take a step or two back (I usually do, dunno if it's required) and just shippu. You'll trade hits but he'll be receiving 4k and you'll get maybe 100. You can charge it a little if you want, but i'd be careful because he recovers before it disappears. Might mis-predict it.

[ryokoalways]

Yes, what you said is correct, if you know it's coming. Good carl players won't let you know that it's coming. Of course you can counter whatever carl is going to do if you know what move he is doing, but that's just theory talk.

[MisoSowee]

Wait I'm confused what you mean... if i know what's coming? x_x

[ryokoalways]

Sorry I don't feel like explaining all the details. Try to figure it out yourself. It's just common sense.

[MisoSowee]

Okay you said they bait a j.D with drill arm right? Thing is you can tell if there's a clap or if nirvana is prepping a drill arm as you tech, can't you? Not to mention you can hear him say con fuoco. And wait a minute clap and 623d are the only moves that still go on after carl's hit isn't it? (techs a throw) how would they bait it with drill arm? and if this is what you mean I was right the entire time! >:[

[ryokoalways]

I'm going to make it more simple than it actually is. The reason you are giving basically means hakumen will also be unable to land tsubaki because you can "see it coming", which is a rightful argument because it's not like it's super fast, on top of the fact the motion is easy to see and large. But that's the wrong way to look at things. In an actual match, it's possible to speed up the flow of the fight to make things harder to see because more things are coming into play. Same applies to carl, which has timings and setups that makes it much more difficult to distinguish between the clap or the stab, either via ambiguity or just with a more rapid setup. Again, I don't want to talk about this because it takes too long to talk about. It's much easier to just go watch vids and see for yourself, or better yet, experience it first hand in an actual match. This is more due to laziness on my part. Anyways, I'm done with this subject.

[MisoSowee]

But that's beside the point. I'm pretty sure drill poke is stopped when carl blocks a hit/techs a throw. There's no guessing game if they can't do it. After that the only thing left to see is if there's a clap or not.

[ryokoalways]

Doesn't stop nirvana via throw break.

[MisoSowee]

see? you coulda just said that! X_x

[ryokoalways]

That's not the problem with your reasoning though. My point is more or less that you shouldn't assume something doesn't work based on "should be able to see it coming". Good players can make the slowest things seem ambiguous. That's what I wanted to get across. Again, I'm just too lazy to present examples. It's easier to experience it first-hand than trying to have someone explain it in my opinion.

[MisoSowee]

Oh.... I guess you're right then. Carl's I fight only maximize damage combos and don't allow any baits and stuff. Sorry for the insight /fail on another note i did guren while a carl was IAD'ing in with j.A spam and i saw the little invincibility bubble circle things (like 6a) guren is upper body invincible too? wait maybe that doesn't belong in this thread.... uh...

[qwerty]

i don't think it is. either way, guren isn't really a move you just throw out. remember you have like, the second or third best 6A in the game (depending on whether or not you think ragna's is better) and carl eats that shit all day on his jump ins.

[MisoSowee]

yeah i was actually trying to do 623a... analog stick pwn! happened to me vs tager once. instead of dashing under the throw i did guren and.... T_T

[AirMaster]

Had this match today and tried to Yukikaze the spinning gear special and it didn'T work. What's the timing to Yukikaze that?

[MisoSowee]

the gear is quite delayed. You can't just buffer it during the super flash. but really you should just barrier it and use shippu. if he's near the corner you can do 623a - 2c - j.2cxN for a little over 6k damage.

[JackG]

Carl doesn't usually jump in unless he's got you in blockstun with Nirvana, or at least good ones... Watch out for 6A too... It's good sure, but Carl can jumpin IB your 6A > landing j.A > 2.A > stuff. It's specific yeah, but Kyle was doing that to me all day.

[ryokoalways]

switching between 5a and 6a should be more than plenty. Or better yet, block. Carl doesn't really have mixup without neesan in position.

[Kyle]

...remember you have like, the second or third best 6A in the game (depending on whether or not you think ragna's is better) and carl eats that shit all day on his jump ins.

LOL

[qwerty]

well, it's true. if you try to jump in with an attack and you're in 6A range, more often than not 6A wins. if you try to empty jump in/kara fastfall, i have an airthrow with good range and hotaru. if i'm in blockstun because of nirvana, then that's a different situation altogether now isn't it?

[Kyle]

You are correct Qwerty. That wasn't so much as derogatory towards your tactics as it was a crack at JackG. I should have quoted him over you tho. Would have helped get my point across. =)

[qwerty]

*reads two posts above yours* well fuck

[JackG]

Yeah Kyle's a dick. jump in IB 6A all day into 3k damage. Not to mention AD j.C so it crosses up and our 6A whiffs like Litchi j.B style. And here is my list of best 6As (for anti-air mostly, but otherwise as well) 1) Rachel - spammable, hits forever high, kills projectiles, is a cat shoryuken. 2) Ragna - his 6A fits fairly high, happens fairly fast (AKA spammable) jump cancellable for pressure/combos - And I'm having trouble deciding if Noel's or Hakumen's 6A is better. Ours is great for ground mixup with +2 on block and gatlings into 6B, but Noel's is SO DAMN FAST and is air attack invuln super fast as well. Though Hakumen's does have this rare "hits behind you" bullshit factor that could put it slightly over the top. Then again, If we're looking at Nu's 2C over her 6A, that would be first in a heartbeat.