[Xrd] Jack-O' Gameplay Discussion Thread

[VonFox]

You still have the normal 5/6/9 frames of unthrowability after blocking/hitstun/waking up.

So even if it isn't throw invuln, the metered version is functionality throw invulnerable as a reversal from knockdown since it has 9f startup. Depending on when it goes airborne the meterless one might be fine too.

[brningpyre]

But that's only from knockdown, though. Every other DP in the game is full invul, so I feel like it might just be a typo. The closest thing is Pot's Trishula, which is only above knee, but that's a pretty special case and not really a reversal.

Your opponent having 9-14 frames to throw you out of your reversal in tick throw situations and neutral is a pretty huge weakness.

[VonFox]

Bedman and I-no's reversal supers are both strike-only invuln, but those are a lot wider so the opponent doesn't essentially have to be in throw range to be threatened like Jsck-o's 2D.

 

Every time I've seen it hit (admittedly not many) she looks airborne by the time it hits, so she seems to leave the ground pretty early. 

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's a lot like Chipp's DP. His is also throwable, but leaves the ground by frame 9. His hits early enough that it avoids a tick-throw scenario though.

Edited September 14, 2015 by VonFox
Added Chipp DP comment

[brningpyre]

That's certainly true. I haven't seen anyone throw Chipp out of his DP, so I'd forgotten about that - good point.

But it does seem extremely weak in situations like Sol/Zato command grabs during block pressure. I can't wait to play around with it, though.

[Corbenik]

Ramlethal's laser doesn't is blocked by the Aigis shield. The matchup seems kind of free from the match posted by burningpyre.

Quick edit: I should rephrase that. The neutral seems pretty free for Jack-o, but Ram still has that really strong pressure on knockdown.

Less quick edit: and then I watched rounds three and four. Jk I'm retarded looks fine.

[brningpyre]

Haha. The reason Ramlethal struggles in a lot of matchups is because her neutral is now kinda weak. But Ram's oki is still fantastic, and Jack-O's defensive options are really bad in that situation.

In the huge vid post I made that you're referring to, there're even more Ramlethal matches if you're interested around that timestamp. But I highly recommend everyone watch the vid - so many amazing matches (and not just Jack-O', either).

EDIT: If anyone knows a good way to download Twitch streams, please let me know. I want to compile all those matches together before the past broadcast gets lost.

Edited September 18, 2015 by brningpyre

[Nannoth]

EDIT: If anyone knows a good way to download Twitch streams, please let me know. I want to compile all those matches together before the past broadcast gets lost.

You can use livestreamer to do it, but it is a command-line utility. Don't know if you'd be comfortable with that.

[brningpyre]

I'm pretty comfortable with command lines. That said, I must be missing something, because Livestreamer doesn't seem to have any download functionality. It just plays the stream through your media player.

[Nannoth]

This should be what you need: http://docs.livestreamer.io/cli.html?highlight=output#file-output-options

[brningpyre]

Ah, I figured it was something like that - thanks! I'll be compiling a bunch of the Jack-O' footage and uploading that for everyone here, since the Twitch VoDs now go away after 2 weeks (I think?).

[Corbenik]

That's really appreciated, thanks.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Sharon on Jack-O Matchups

[TD]

is anyone surprised to see Millia in the impossible tier? Lol 

 

wonder what makes Faust such a good matchup though, it doesn't look like he has trouble breaking ghosts. Although it does look like his best poke, fs, isn't as good as normally here and since he has a lot of projectiles that can be negated instantly by her force field...

[Nobus3r1]

is anyone surprised to see Millia in the impossible tier? Lol 

 

wonder what makes Faust such a good matchup though, it doesn't look like he has trouble breaking ghosts. Although it does look like his best poke, fs, isn't as good as normally here and since he has a lot of projectiles that can be negated instantly by her force field...

Just eyeballing things I'm guessing that 3HS also low profiles a ton of his stuff.  Also his jump and air dash are floaty and slow respectively so I could envision him having trouble against airborne servants.

[brningpyre]

What I find really interesting is that he considers Ramlethal a (slightly) bad matchup. It didn't seem that way in the Ram vs. Jack-O' matches I'd seen.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

is anyone surprised to see Millia in the impossible tier? Lol 

 

wonder what makes Faust such a good matchup though, it doesn't look like he has trouble breaking ghosts. Although it does look like his best poke, fs, isn't as good as normally here and since he has a lot of projectiles that can be negated instantly by her force field...

Millia probably mostly comes down to it's pretty easy for her to get past Jack-O's servants due to her quick movement+ movement options and then once she's past them, it'll take them 20 years to catch back up to her because non clock up'd servants are pretty slow. It's probably more or less the same reasoning as to why Chipp is in the Disadvantage tier except Millia also has her terrifying mixup game to worry about as well.

I think Nobus is on the right track about Faust. Normally, the Magician isn't particularly useful against most of the cast because of the projectile's poor tracking but against Faust's slow air options, it might actually be able to control air space. His slow air options also probably make it easier to use 6HS as an AA that'll prevent people getting over the Knights and Lancers. Still feel like I need to see footage of Sharon fighting a good Faust to get a feel for where this MU goes downhill for Faust though.

[brningpyre]

As of today, the top 5 ranked Jack-O's are:

1. Dei (20)
2. Metro (20)
3. Sharon (20)
4. Tsujikawa (19)
5. BLE (18)

Full Rankings and Info as of 2015.09.22: (apologies for any mistakes the names - my Japanese kinda sucks)

OVERALL
1    Karinchu          23    Johnny
2    Nage                22    Nage
3    Mocchi             22    Sol
4    Tomo               21    Leo
5    ?                       21    Slayer
6    FAB                  21    Potemkin
7    Rion                 21    Ky
8    Omito               21    Johnny
9    Susumu            21    Chipp
10    Samitto           21    Chipp
11    ?                     21    Sin
12    Nakamura      21    Millia
13    DC@ERG      20    Sin
14    ?                    20    I-No
15    Matto             20    Millia
16    Eki-chan        20    Millia
17    ?                    20    Slayer
18    ?                    20    Elphelt
19    Dei              20    Jack-O'
20    ?                    20    Ky

SOL BADGUY
1    Mocchi        22
2    Machaha        20
3    Haken        20
4    Tak@        20
5    ?            19

KY KISKE
1    Rion        21
2    ?            20
3    Ain            18
4    Nagumo        17
5    Kimu-Chan    16

MAY
1    Kedako        20
2    syo            20
3    Azesuke        19
4    Efute        19
5    ?            19

MILLIA
1    Nakamura    21
2    Matto        20
3    Eki-chan    20
4    Dosuke        20
5    ?            19

ZATO-1
1    Ogawa        20
2    Mabo        19
3    Takeshi        19
4    Tabun        18
5    Din            18

POTEMKIN
1    FAB                    21
2    CONSOMME            20
3    G                    18
4    SHIBU                17
5    Yes, Mass Carbomb    16    (I don't even know, lol)

CHIPP
1    Susumu        21
2    Samitto        21
3    Shisho        18
4    ?            18
5    Yusuke-chin 18

FAUST
1    Nage        22
2    LEO            20
3    Defure        19
4    Gonzaburou    18
5    ?-ro-chan    18

AXL LOW
1    Simon Belmont    19
2    ?                17
3    Agito            17
4    Mososhi            16
5    Mori            16

VENOM
1    Face Guard (?)    20
2    Fino            20
3    310 / STO        19
4    Run                18
5    ?                18

SLAYER
1    F (?)            21
2    GG PLAYER        20
3    Hase            19
4    Taka            19
5    Ikkun            19

I-NO
1    ?-nouzen        20
2    Rokkassa        18
3    Koichi            18
4    Otouto-KUN        18
5    Hasegawa        18

BEDMAN
1    Danbooru-man (lol)        20    
2    Sabamisonantoka            19
3    Japan Bedman (?-Rest)    18
4    ?                        18
5    Off-tone (?)                18

RAMLETHAL
1    ?                19
2    Daiji            19
3    Nasshekunia    (?)    18
4    Kakkou            18
5    Saryu            17

SIN
1    ?                21
2    DC@ERG            20
3    RLRR LRLL        19
4    TAD                19
5    SOS                19

ELPHELT
1    Massoi            20
2    K.IK Route        19
3    Suke            19
4    Oishiihanpakku    19
5    Kerisu-chan        19

LEO WHITEFANG
1    Tomo        21
2    TON            20
3    Hossa        19
4    GURE        17
5    Yuu-sama    17

JOHNNY
1    Karinchu    23
2    Omito        21
3    Jonio        19
4    Freed        18
5    ?            18

JACK-O'
1    Dei            20
2    Metro            20
3    Sharon            20
4    Tsujikawa        19
5    BLE                18

TIER LIST (by total top 5 ranking)
Sol, Millia
Johnny, Slayer, Sin
Faust, Jack-O', May, Chipp, Elphelt
Venom, Leo, Zato, Bedman
Ky, I-No, Potemkin, Ramlethal
Axl

USAGE (by %)
Johnny        12.8
Sol            12.2
Jack-O'        10.3
Ky            7.73
Slayer        5.58
Elphelt        5.24
Sin            5.17
Millia        4.66
Potemkin    4.53
Leo            3.92
May            3.75
I-No        3.48
Ramlethal    3.48
Zato-1        3.33
Axl            3.09
Faust        3.06
Chipp        2.71
Venom        2.5
Bedman        2.27

EDIT: The top 5 tier list is more just for fun and interest than being serious. Axl was bottom by a lot, though, but it reflects more of a combination of win rate and usage.

Edited September 23, 2015 by brningpyre
Fixed Dei's name, thanks Tokkan

[Tokkan]

"Jack-Okude" is Dei, the Testament player.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

That's interesting. I didn't know Dei was playing the character too. I thought he was still playing the Valentine sisters. Guess I'll have to try and keep an eye for his Jack-O. 

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Jack-O Frame Data

Things that interested me:

• c.S and 2K are +3 on block. Kind of random. But definitely good to have.
• Ground Ghost throw is -2 on its own. Not bad. Considering the distance we'll be using it at and we're more likely to pair it with servant attacks anyway.
• Seems each organ command takes 12F to do.
• Ghost Recovery And Explosion can be reused after 15 seconds, Clock Up after 25 seconds, Aigis Field after 30 seconds

[RurouniLoneWolf]

It's been forever since I posted here so I thought I'd post here ^,^

Revelator demo is coming eventually so I've been working on improving our resources all around. I've time stamped a few of the recent Jack-O vids, started working on the wiki and wrote a starters guide. You may have noticed in the evernote version of the starters guide, there's a matchup section I left out of the Dustloop version. Those are mostly my ramblings that I thought might interest people. I might come back and expand on it to make it a general tidbits section on all matchups and then add it to the Dustloop version. Who knows. We'll see. 

For now, my only plans in the immediate future is to finish working on her wiki. If there's anything else you would like to see, let me know here, PM, in the discord chat or even tweet at me directly and I will see what I can do. 

[Pen_Ninja]

Wouldn't be surprised if hut throw frame advantage is based off like a point blank hit.

There's no way it's not plus on block if it hits on the way down, even standing hut throw.

Edit: It's plus a bunch if it hits anywhere but point blank

[Hakkai_Requiem]

I'd like to try Jack O' as soon as I'll get Revelator.

Summon characters are usually hard to play (as I "try" to main Rachel in BB, I know the feel of having lots of things to keep track of) 

Is Jack O' as hard to play as I expect her to be (aka: a lot) for a beginner or is she less challenging than what you could expect?

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Slightly less challenging. Unlike most other characters like her, she has some pretty good buttons that make playing footsies a little easier and her combo theory is also pretty straight forward. I would recommend watching some footage of Mike, Shuumatsu and Kakishi in the video thread and seeing for yourself what you're getting into. 

[MX_Engellier]

On 11/6/2016 at 0:39 PM, Hakkai_Requiem said:

Is Jack O' as hard to play as I expect her to be (aka: a lot) for a beginner or is she less challenging than what you could expect?

Not really, just like RurouniLoneWolf said, she's pretty straight forward and has some good footsie tools, but, while she's easy to play, the ridiculous amount of setups she has plus the randomness from her ghosts make her somewhat hard to master IMO.
Nonethless, she's just a blast to play with and gives you the oportunity to aproach her gameplay in many different ways.