Venom vs Sin

[DaiAndOh]

Discuss the matchup here.

Dumped info from the prior thread, person's name shows their contribution.

Dai:
Sin's poke game is strong as one can figure. Your neutral must be on point.

Pay close attention to his food gauges, his pressure (and mixup to some extent) relies on it. I believe I read it takes 40 frames for his food to be fully eaten. Be prepared to interrupt with 2S/f.S/HS Stinger. Maybe you can utilize YRC to slow him down to help punish bad eating attempts?

 

Sin can YRC food after he eats it, and he can RC/PRC his hunger state after a certain point.

He has a low to the ground low hitting dash for one of his specials, so you can't be reckless with Stingers.

 

Beak Driver (his mid stabbing move) is 2 hits, has 11 frame startup, is chargeable, causes level 5 blockstun and negates all projectiles. Very annoying to deal with...

 

His face up and face down wake up times are very different from one another. I urge people to check the system frame data on the wiki (with the exception of the first hit of 2D, Venom's knockdowns will be face up)

 

Kinslayer:
Only thing I've found to help ease this match up is doing more low ball set formations like K ball> P ball it helps because it give a ball sin can't slide under and one about pelvis level that Gives safe but still solid pressure. Other than that I don't know. He has an amazing backdash 1-16 frames of in invinc out of 24 frames

 

Dai:
On a lower level, Sin's risk/reward is more obvious and apparent than Venom's. Slide being +2 is huge. I sometimes do more Carcass Raids midscreen and further because Sin's tend to favor to approach with it (adjust per player).

Sin though can have some difficulty opening strong defense. YRC and j.D don't give Sin true instant overheads, but he has setups with j.HS

Food is still his lifeline. Again, poke/hit/YRC, if you stop him from eating when he's low on food, it really becomes in your favor.

Slide is not true low profile status though, so you can 2S it I believe!

If Sin tries to command jump in pressure, 6P will usually beat any option he tries.

Justice:
Sin's DP kills meaties really hard since he can cancel into slide on block and it's +2, but the invul isn't that long and the range is bad. Use ball setups and/or meaty Carcass to keep him locked down.

So I discovered that Sin can 5K to avoid getting hit by match startup 2S. Pretty funny. He recovers faster than Venom does too so he gets "advantage" from the mutual whiff.

 

DBCLoop:
if Sin likes to dp out of Venom safe jumps, we can buffer in a blitz shield as an Option Select.

[KentoHardRok]

beak driver (that 2 hit poke) works for crushing venoms balls   but as Dai pointed out, if your careful, you can set them low so they go under it. Those low flying balls will also stop the slide as well so from a neutral state, they hurt sin's approach on Venom. Venom's 6P also can shut down his command hop so that works well too. 

Playing different Venoms, each player has their own approach, some rely on teleports more while others love neutral and will smack balls all over the screen. Teleports are pretty easy to deal with as Sin because his moves cover large areas of the screen. Venom players taking advantage of his projectiles are more difficult because it cuts down his mobility. 

As Sin I think a good approach is to apply pressure fast and stay on top of venom. If you can get him in the corner and stay mid screen with pokes into combos while managing calories usually its easy to keep his options low and punish him for trying to get out. 

I am pretty sure Venom can 2D under Voltec Dein (the slow bird super) and his big dark ball super flys right past it. Just something else to be aware of for sin. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by KentoHardRok
Wrong special move :/

[Zephyrion22]

Since a lot of the matchup specifics was dealt with for Venom's side, I'll deal with Sin's side

Neutral

As said above round start 5K makes 2S whiff. If the Venom likes to do 2S>Carcasse Raid, you can Beak driver CH it and leap above the ball for a huge combo : optimized version gives you 50 meter to set a Voltic Dein okizeme, which puts Venom in a "do or die" position. This only works if the Carcasse Raid reset is done from far enough though !

As being said, Elk Hunt goes under Stinger Aim (mind the possible YRC), and Beak Driver can kill some balls. Mind the fact that Venom can hit them in such a way, that the ball goes under the beak so watch carefully their trajectories.Leap and high jump are here to help you against low balls ! Try not to bee too passivewhen it comes to pool balls : dealing with them is a pain, so if cou can prevent him from summoning them, do so !

Due to the fact Venom can summon balls and use Mad Struggle to keep himself hanging, It's sometimes better to go for the airthrow than to commit to 6P and get punished, though 6P has a much better reward in terms of damage and oki.

Escaping pressure

QV (the ball set that does a hit and negate projectile) is -4, meaning that you can beat a following 2S with your own. Being a level 0 its blockstun is very short, so learn the timing to press your buttons against it if Venom thinks he is entitled to use it in pressure.

Carcass Raid is pretty much the core of Venom's pressure in the corner. If you block it, it's a free pressure reset for him, but  you can jump above it before it reaches you. The H version of it is used to prevent you from getting out, but completely whiffs if you're not up close, meaning you can 2S him out of it. So it's a two-layered mindgame. First Layer is using IB and FD cleverly to mess with the spacing Venom wants to build in his pressure to force him to use Carcasse Raid at points he doesn't want to, and thent try to escape by guessing which version he will use. Of course, mind the fact that Venom can do something completely diffferent !

Whatever happens, don't let Venom get up close and personal during pressure.: His throw leads to great meterless combos, and TK Mad struggle is not to be messed with (fast overhead, +7 on block). Both options, along with his lows, lead to his okizeme, meaning you're in a really bad position. Whatever you choose to do, be sure you don't respect it too much, because you'll be in for a treat if you do.

Offense

Venom has a 4f startup jump  and no reversal, although his backdash is more than decent. This means that while he has options, he has an harder time getting out of pressure than other chars.  The move you'll have to keep in mind is 2S, as it can go under 5K at some ranges, and more importantly, goes incredibly far for a 6f move, making it dangerous whenever Venom IBs a + move, or use FD to get at your S range. Be sure to stay right in his face, as any farther becomes risky. He also has quite a few efficient AA moves, so don't jump on him carelessly, and reset the neutral once you feel you cant press your advantage any further.

Venom has by far the fastest face-up wake-up (21f), So you'll have to adjust your meaties to that

Final words

This is a really balanced MU for me, with a slight advantage for Sin because he can contest Venom's neutral and go ham on him on offense. However, Sin's pressure is not scary enough to keep Venom cornered at all times, but the reverse is untrue : Sin cannot get out of Venom's pressure reliably. Clever reads on neutral and sheer damage output are still your best friends !

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Zephyrion22

[DaiAndOh]

Nice writeup Zephyrion.

Kento, it's Beak Driver that eats projectiles, Hawk Breaker the DP. They tend to pass through that. Venom can 2D under Fireball super. Sin should not set it up in neutral situations and not expect it.