Soniti Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 I am not getting to play much due to long lines, but I'll go ahead and start an observations post: -It seems like 6b is required after 5b in order to make 5cc combo in many situations. -it feels like 5cc combos from further distances -j.2c is a short starter overhead, but you need to wind it to be in range for a combo after. J.3d 5b combos, but you can't 5c after. You probably need 6b between. -j.3d j.2c > 5cc 6c j.c j.236c 5b combos. I haven't figured out what to do from there yet, as it seems you can't do the whole 5b 6a 4b thing due to the short starter. I didn't get to test 6a>air dash routes unfortunately.
Rele Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 so we can basically use j.2c like we did in ct by doing j.3DC? does j.3DC 5B 5CC work, without winding a 2nd time? did they give j.2C jumpcancel back as well (this would actually be insane lol) these j.2c changes ALMOST make up for the loss of pumpkin for me... if lotus is really so much better I might still play her after all.
TD Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Honestly with j2c being short what's the point of using it as a winded overhead. It becomes redundant except maybe a little more damage than a ja starter perhaps, having a little more room to go for an IOH if she's not point blank. Might be useful as another "windless" overhead while frog is on them? cat chair combo in cpex does about 2.4k optimally, maybe 400 more damage adding in bbl.
7thFonon Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 3 hours ago, Rele said: these j.2c changes ALMOST make up for the loss of pumpkin for me... if lotus is really so much better I might still play her after all. Except lotus really is that much better.... If I had the option to have bbcp2 pumpkin or bbcf lotus, I'd take lotus in a heartbeat (assuming I get all the rest of bbcf Rachel's properties)
7thFonon Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Because this thread is the [CF]Rachel Alucard Final Changelist thread, and we're talking about BBCF changes in relation to BBCP2? Also I remember you guys wanted to know what windless combos Rachel had off 5CC. IOH (not counting that as wind for combo of course) dash 5A5B5CC > 6C > jC > etc You can basically do this off any dash in 5A5B5CC / 2A5B5CC / etc... you just have to make sure you're close to your opponent in the corner or it won't work.
gamester Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Ivy use in one mid-combo shown here https://youtu.be/BCeBR5tTfSs just hits over 3K damage. I can't read JP but Ivy looks to only add 300+ dmg.
7thFonon Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 You can get a tad bit more damage off Ivy, depends on how high you launch them in a combo. A full set of Ivy does around 600 damage, but if you keep your opponent too high in the combo (where bats can't reach them) you will lose damage. Simply going for a route that doesn't launch as high (such as not using 5A after j236B/C), would have added more damage to Ivy since it keeps the opponent lower to the ground. Granted, I'm not sure if you can produce the same amount of combo damage (despite adding more lotus damage), but you can get more than 300 damage off lotus mid combo. But again, the maximum damage of the overall combo, I'm not sure.
TD Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Ivy apparently can be winded right? Are there any videos that showcase this? Ugh, I hope something good is found with this move soon... It just makes no sense...
7thFonon Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 24 minutes ago, TD said: Ivy apparently can be winded right? Are there any videos that showcase this? Ugh, I hope something good is found with this move soon... It just makes no sense... Dunno if there's any videos, but the bats just spread apart in the direction that you winded. Not really much more to it than that. Ivy is good in the corner. Though at center stage, the bats don't really do anything. Even if you wind them to your opponent, they're still pretty weak unless they are in the corner where they can pile up on your opponent. But I think the move can be useful at certain times, and vs non-DP characters, it's a very good for corner oki.
NaotoKuroShiro Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 4 hours ago, TD said: Ivy apparently can be winded right? Are there any videos that showcase this? Ugh, I hope something good is found with this move soon... It just makes no sense... I think this was already confirmed before but here's footage of Ivy Blossom being affected by wind. https://youtu.be/qU1eCXrvWsM?t=443 around the 7:30 mark, hope that helps.
TD Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 That was actually a good match too, learned a lot. with lotus being so good now, I'm thinking, maybe her neutral might end up staying strong in this game. Ivy seems like a good move in neutral vs turtles and characters with slow or linear movement. Looks easy to just avoid the bats. Looks like to maximize them in neutral, Rachel will need to wind the ivy bats on the foe ASAP and then lock them down in place for a few seconds. I'm guessing the lotus bats aid this in the sense of sword iris being a constant threat if everything goes right in neutral. With priority on corner carry and offensive momentum, ivy seems a bit counterproductive in neutral. I can see the merits of using it in the corner, but did Rachel really need poison? Heres a question, in the trailer, it seems Ivy blossom was used as an air ender, is that confirmed? Ground one doesn't seem to have a hitbox.
NaotoKuroShiro Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 14 minutes ago, TD said: That was actually a good match too, learned a lot. with lotus being so good now, I'm thinking, maybe her neutral might end up staying strong in this game. Ivy seems like a good move in neutral vs turtles and characters with slow or linear movement. Looks easy to just avoid the bats. Looks like to maximize them in neutral, Rachel will need to wind the ivy bats on the foe ASAP and then lock them down in place for a few seconds. I'm guessing the lotus bats aid this in the sense of sword iris being a constant threat if everything goes right in neutral. With priority on corner carry and offensive momentum, ivy seems a bit counterproductive in neutral. I can see the merits of using it in the corner, but did Rachel really need poison? Heres a question, in the trailer, it seems Ivy blossom was used as an air ender, is that confirmed? Ground one doesn't seem to have a hitbox. as far as I can tell both versions have no hitboxes, as seen in the trailer. https://youtu.be/OQUjdc-y9tM?t=77 the ivy blossom just goes straight down and rachel goes into J.B> rest of combo without affecting the count of her combo.
Rhapsody Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 9 hours ago, gamester said: Ivy use in one mid-combo shown here https://youtu.be/BCeBR5tTfSs just hits over 3K damage. I can't read JP but Ivy looks to only add 300+ dmg. Cool. Looks like I was on the right track. Might not be as good as P4U2 Venom Zapper stuff, but it's something. Then you can oki Ivy for more after BBL I suppose. Lotus buffs are definitely interesting. Seems like we're going to have to be a bit more patient before gaining our turn.
Rele Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Yeah Ivy indeed looks like complete garbage. I'm glad at least lotus is kind of a good pseudo pumpkin now, though you can't keep someone into blockstun twice with it so it's still a little meh. We'll see how this develops.
7thFonon Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 you can keep people in blockstun twice with lotus..... In multiple ways.... And you don't have to waste 2 wind to do it. I'll probably have a better idea of how I think of her once I get back to Japan next month, but right now, with only 3-4 days of playing, I personally think she's really good.... Maybe bbcp1.00 tier / level once fully developed. Imo, if she had pumpkin in this game, it would be kinda dumb. She's great like she is now, and I like the direction they're going with Rachel.
TD Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 4 hours ago, NaotoKuroShiro said: as far as I can tell both versions have no hitboxes, as seen in the trailer. https://youtu.be/OQUjdc-y9tM?t=77 the ivy blossom just goes straight down and rachel goes into J.B> rest of combo without affecting the count of her combo. I'm blind never mind lol
Rele Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 15 hours ago, 7thFonon said: you can keep people in blockstun twice with lotus..... In multiple ways.... And you don't have to waste 2 wind to do it. Explain please. I was under the impression that lotus follows the enemy once it hits or is blocked and does not have a hitbox anymore?
RurouniLoneWolf Posted November 23, 2015 Author Posted November 23, 2015 Not sure if it's what Fonon had in mind specifically but I think the first is lotus hitbox when attaching and the second is TK Sword Irising the lotus in a blockstring. But I'm just guessing.
TD Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 With lotus having such awesome recovery, once a lotus bat is attached, Rachel can potentially keep summoning lotus in pressure (using a lobelia pressure reset), creating mind games: will she blow up the current bat, or summon a new one? Reminds me of how jack-o sort of does her pressure in xrd, frame trap or summon; summon being a pseudo reset on it's own, and the frame trap leading into a combo and/or oki into the same situation.
Rele Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 3 hours ago, RurouniLoneWolf said: Not sure if it's what Fonon had in mind specifically but I think the first is lotus hitbox when attaching and the second is TK Sword Irising the lotus in a blockstring. But I'm just guessing. apples and oranges... being able to use TK iris and having a pumpkin ready above an opponents head are drastically different.
RurouniLoneWolf Posted November 23, 2015 Author Posted November 23, 2015 2 minutes ago, Rele said: apples and oranges... being able to use TK iris and having a pumpkin ready above an opponents head are drastically different. You asked for clarification on how can you keep an opponent in blockstun twice using lotus without spending wind and I gave you what I thought Fonon could mean. Not sure where this conversation of pumpkin oki vs TK Iris came from.
Rele Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 21 hours ago, Rele said: I'm glad at least lotus is kind of a good pseudo pumpkin now, though you can't keep someone into blockstun twice with it 21 hours ago, 7thFonon said: you can keep people in blockstun twice with lotus Is it clear now what I meant? This is simply not true. With pumpkin I could wind it towards an enemy, do a blockstring and end with lets say frog or lobelia, then wind it again and have frame advantage this way. With lotus I can't do the same thing, so it's not exactly a substitute.
RurouniLoneWolf Posted November 23, 2015 Author Posted November 23, 2015 Ok. I see what you were actually originally asking. All right then. Let me rephrase my answer then. Replace winding a pumpkin to hit meaty with having a (winded) lotus bat trying to attach itself meaty and the part where you want to reset pressure with TK Iris and you more or less have the same thing. I think Pumpkin and Lotus are pretty interchangeable in the context of pressure, at least in the corner. You might not be able to do things exactly like how you did it with the Pumpkin but there'll be ways to accomplish it. It's neutral that's more concerning for me. There's too much dependency on having poles out and strategically placed in my opinion. But it's best to wait and see. JP Rachels might come up with some interesting tactics to make this a non issue.
TD Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Well the bats home in and are quite fast with wind on top of not disappearing on block, so you really just need to have wind available and decent foresight to use wind before being placed in blockstun. Getting hit without poles out though is going to suck lol... strategically placed poles does play a factor if she want to not use wind though. Or if used in the air I assume, if you don't want to go flying in an unwanted direction like a cow in a heavy storm.
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