Dacidbro Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 This is where you post desperately trying to figure out how to get out of pressure. If I'm out of line for making this topic and not even being an Ara user, I'll gladly pass this topic off to whoever. However, having very successfully played with most of America's best Arakunes, I think I'm qualified to help you guys here, and want to do so. Defense Lets be honest, this is by far the most important aspect of this matchup As a very bare bones beginning, I'm going to lay out Bang's most scary pressure tools. 5A -This move is hella fast/prioritized -Combos to 3-4k -Gatlings to just about anything Highest Danger; Getting hit by it, Tick Grab, Gatling to low jabs or overhead Summary; You aren't going to beat this move on reaction, and it will more often than not go through your jabs and pokes. I don't know enough about Kune to say what you should do about it, but if anyone has any suggestions I would be very appreciative. At a glance I would say if you're point blank with Bang this is most likely what's going to be on Bang's mind, so watch out. On block, Bang will be looking for a couple things here; Overhead Low jab Tick Grab The problem for you is that these seamlessly flow together incredibly easily. If you're scared of the low jab, the tick grab and overhead are high threat. If you're scared of the tick grab, you may get blockstrung into a low or eat the airunblockable aspect of the overhead (!!! WAIT, His overhead is airunblockable?! Yeah guys, if you jump out of Bang's pressure, hold barrier or you're gonna eat a whole combo for nothing). Finally, if you're scared of the overhead, you're not blocking low for the non-reactable low jab and you're also not jumping out of the tick grab. This is Bang's most vicious guessing game. I would guess that your best bet is going to be IB Backdash. I don't think anything else is guaranteed, I'm just about sure you can't backdash out of the tick grab unless you IB, I'm completely sure you can't backdash out of the low without and maybe even with IB, but the overhead is 100% beaten out by backdash, so at least you have that.. if you're not in the corner. Another thing to try (particularly in the corner) is IB Grab. Should beat out tick grab and overhead, 2A is still gonna rape you. Spider super is certainly a possible option, since Bang is sure as hell not going to be respecting Arakune's reversals (lol) in most cases. 2A -Most of the same problems as above -Has no jab it can gatling into Summary; Similar dangers as 5A, It can gatling into tick grab, overhead, and even into itself, so you have the same sort of guessing game going on. However, unlike from 5A, you only have to worry about one low, so if you successfully block the second low in a row, unless you're playing against a truly researched Bang, you're free to buffer a barrier-block-jump to save yourself from both the overhead and the grab; the worst case scenario is he gatlings to 2C and gets a free low since you're stuck in blockstun before you can jump, but the most COMMON scenario is he gatlings to 5B and continues pressure. If he continues to 5B, you're out of the woods unless he uses nails to reset it, usually. 5B -Another fast poke -Farther range than 5A -Higher damage, but roughly half as fast Summary; There's probably a couple things Ara can do about this one, it's significantly less dangerous overall. However, it's a great poke, so if you're just outside of 5A, this is going to be incoming. Thankfully for you, Bang can't gatling this to a low jab, so you can almost certainly IB Backdash this for free, barring that you're going to be in pressure and blocking, but probably too far away for anything but a 2B, so pay attention and IB that shit if nothing else. An IB'd 2B is free out of pressure almost always with a backdash attached (Correct me if I'm wrong please, this is really just what I perceive to be correct, but I'm far from an Ara pro). Just realize that if you plan to sit this one out and block, you have to deal with the possibilty of 5C/6A mixup, both of which are high damage and put you back on wakeup 2B -Long range poke -Most commonly used as filler, because the only way to get any sort of pressure off of it is to use nails Summary; This move has extremely little danger attached, and is going to be probably the single easiest move Bang has to IB backdash. The reason, here, is that it's CRAZY popular for Bang to jump cancel 2B and use Dnails, and if he does, you have some odd 8+ frames to get in your backdash, making him waste nails while you get out free. Cool. However, if he gatlings 2B to 2C, I don't know if you'll get out in time.. and 2C leads to 3k+Oki now. *Shrug*, make sure the bang you're playing with isn't using 2C first, because if you block 2C that's the end of Bang's mixup unless he rapids. 2C -Logical next step from 2B, but non-jump cancellable -Much safer on block than it used to be, coupled with the fact it can gatling to 623B, and you're just not going to successfully punish this move, I wouldn't recommend trying Summary; Just understand this marks the end of his pressure unless he uses a rapid cancel, but don't stop blocking. Lol. 5C -Overhead -Usable from 5A, 2A, 5B -Airunblockable -Active above Bang faster than it's active in front of Bang, so for the love of god don't try to jump out of this TOWARDs him, Lol -Jump cancellable on hit or block Summary; Understand it, respect it, hate it, deal with it A trick of my own is to Dnails off 5C, so don't ever let up your mental defense just because 5C landed or you blocked it, you might be right back in pressure. 6A -Tricky low -Usable from 5A, 2A, 5B, 5C Summary; If you think you're really good at blocking the overhead, the Bang you're playing against probably hasn't been utilizing this correctly. This is the sub-move that realistically forces Arakune to backdash instead of trying to block the 5C. As long as you have the mentality of BDing the 5C, this move shouldn't be much of a problem. If you don't, or he pulls some really, really fancy mix to make it hit, it's 3.5k damage and oki, so you really do want to avoid this one. Just because it's a low, doesn't mean it prorates bad. Remember that 6B -Tricky high -Usable from 5A, 2A, 5C (IIRC) -Most common use, double overhead from 5C Summary; More incentive to BD the 5C, Bang's mixup only gets better after you've tried or failed to block the 5C. Just remember he has this now, and it's 2.5k with oki. 623C -Command grab -Very short range -Fantastic conditioning tool Summary; This makes your life suck if you haven't gotten the hang of IB BD. Really. To be able to use it, Bang has to dash in before his normals during a pressure string (Most accomplished by Dnails) and on wakeup situations on a neutral tech it's very high threat too. So, you see Bang dash in, you try to jump out, right? Well, if he's an intelligent bang, off of Dnails, he's going to go right to d5A > 2A, and if you stop right there you already got hit low for trying to jump out. A disciplined bang will take the 2k damage (2A prorates HORRIBLY, at least you have that going for ya) and put you back on wakeup until you respect the 2A, and THEN he will try to actually make the command grab hurt. So it's not as simple as just jumping out. However, if you do know the IB BD, most of these situations won't happen. If you IB BD 2B, he can't Dnail you for free, which takes that danger out of his gameplay. On wakeup, just be careful about neutral techs, that's another popular time for him to command grab (But simultaneously the most popular wakeup move for Bang is 2A, so fuck your life). If the Bang is getting really wakeup pressure happy, try a backwards roll. Should get you out of the 2A/Command grab for free, and you probably worst case end up in block. Those are his most dangerous grounded aspects. Should be a good start. I will keep updating this as I find time. Best of luck Aras.
Irrsinn Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Yeah HFA said that you can't do shit but IB Backdash against Bang's pressure now, and Ragna's too, shit sux Thanks for the info bro.
Dacidbro Posted April 14, 2010 Author Posted April 14, 2010 Dabbit, I know you're getting better at fighting Bang; any thoughts?
kousaka Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 bang's 2d is very strong against arakune, it pretty much wards off all the j6a/s and j4b pressure there's some distant specific stuff you can do with the j4c cancel to land so you can punish with 2a, or bait it and jD them into 100% curse, or simply jump cancel away you'll find yourself blocking endless 5a/2a/jA's and there's not much that can be done except to backdash don't cloud unless you have a big opening to do so, bang's too fast and can react and punish, instead use a mix of 214a fakes some of bang's jA pressure can be beat with arakune's jA, confirm into jAA>j6a>jA>jB>jC>jD for 30% curse, it's better then nothing on the bright side bang is one of the easiest to dive cancel combo on 2c FC dive combo is 100% curse every time easy no problem just use 5d>hjc>jAA>jC>jD all the way through, catch them with 5aa 5c FC dive combo works well too but you won't get many chances to use this because it's so easy to dive combo on bang, it's very rewarding to burn meter on counter assault>beam super>5d>hjc>dive combo be careful with 2d basketballs as bang can 2d teleport punish all day
Skye Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 So any thoughts about Barrier blocking? I recalled this was one of the key methods of getting Ragna out of your face in CT, and on good reflexes it give you options vs Bang's pressure.
Dacidbro Posted April 20, 2010 Author Posted April 20, 2010 I think there is certainly merit to barrier blocking Bang pressure, though whenever he wants to he can shift to 2B Dnails to reset it, so don't think it's a faultless defense (see what I did) to his options. Something I think every Arakune should explore is spots where you can successfully jump out; having the fastest jump in the game (3f, tied with Litchi), your ability to jump out of stuff is uncanny.
Irrsinn Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Wait, wasn't his jump supposed to be slower in CS? then how fast was it in CT? 2f?
Irrsinn Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Actually, its 3f in CT, and since its supposed to be slower in CS I guess its kinda relevant.
Irrsinn Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Oh it isn't? Oh ok, I wasn't sure because it kept being mentioned from time to time, thanks for the clarification.
Dacidbro Posted April 20, 2010 Author Posted April 20, 2010 Yeah, if it somehow ends up that it wasn't 3f, it's LordKnight's fault. He told me straight out Ara and Litchi 3f, everyone else 4.
kousaka Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Gonna give you some quick bang matchup advice. Pressuring with iad jB getting autoguarded by bang's 2d is normal. I see that your mixing in 2a to beat out the 2d but your using 2a>2a>2d which isn't safe. They can autoguard the 2d at the point. What you want is to be close enough for 2a>5b>5d>iad jB>5a>6b>j6d (70% curse). It also allows you to jump cancel away after 5b for clouds or safety or simply making them block a 5d which is relatively safe. Getting autoguarded by 2d on 6a after blocked 5a>6a. Your not mixing up your 5a blockstrings enough. 5a can go into blocked 5d which isn't too useful on bang. What you want is 5a *(1-3) pause wait for bang's 2d then 2c FC him for instant curse combo. The other things are minor but it's reacting to how you hit them during curse. Since your using 6c block string pressure your 6c bug is coming out automatically meaning if you do confirm into a D bug when they pop up you won't have a 6c bug available for regular 236CD loops. You adjusted later in that match with plain 236C mashing D loops but that won't connect as there's not enough time for the D bug to come out. You need to use a j6c>236C(mash D) in this situation. Hope that helps a bit. I can tell immediately that you've been putting in the hours secret training though.
CopperDabbit Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 snip Thanks for the advice, but there were actually reasons for doing what I was doing. The iad jB can get guard pointed pretty easily, but that's ok, but it's jump cancelable. If I see it getting guard pointed I just jump and barrier and the worst case scenario then is that I block it. Best case scenario is that he teleports and his attack wiffs, in which case I can do jD for some free curse. Also, I cool little factoid I discovered is that it is actually safe to poke with the 2D, but you have to be REALLY careful with your spacing. If he tries to guard point > teleport the 2nd hit of the 2D, then you get to block. Get your timing right and you can instant block it, then punish with 5A > 6B. The problem is if your spacing isn't just right, he'll teleport to the other side of you for a quick cross-up. Knowing the spacing will allow you to always punish it tho. It's difficult, but possible. At the time, I was kind of at a loss for him using 2D on my 6A after the 5A x N, and what I started doing in the match was jump canceling and then barrier blocking. In retrospect, what I should have been doing is 6A > 2B for a counter hit, 2C rapid blah blah blah, or if I didn't have any meter CH 2B, link 5A > 6B. Lastly, I'm aware that I fucked up some combos, especially the ones where I was using 6C to do guard breaks. It's a very bad habit I've gotten into where I'm not keeping track of the different bug recharge times in my head, and just acting on auto-pilot. I'm working on it, I swear ;>_< However, all of your advice is completely valid and I totally see the wisdom of it. I'll try to mix in some more of that as well.
dehumanizer Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Was there any particular reason you didn't do 6a>j5c mixup during curse in the match? I felt you would've got more combos off if you put that in ur pressure.
Skye Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 At the time, I was kind of at a loss for him using 2D on my 6A after the 5A x N, and what I started doing in the match was jump canceling and then barrier blocking. In retrospect, what I should have been doing is 6A > 2B for a counter hit, 2C rapid blah blah blah, or if I didn't have any meter CH 2B, link 5A > 6B. You're way better off doing 6A > 6B. 6b is also a low, same start up as 2b (11f), but the CH stun can take you into 100% curse without the need to RC, it's like Rachel's CH 6b in CT. 2B is still pretty good for stuffing ground stuff, but the lack of a viable capitalization makes it's almost useless. Although I can understand some scenarios where it may come in handy, in this particular one, 6b is way better. Was there any particular reason you didn't do 6a>j5c mixup during curse in the match? I felt you would've got more combos off if you put that in ur pressure. He should experiment with turning invisible and try the cross up jc combo.
CopperDabbit Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 @dehumanizer Because I really, really suck with picking that up into a combo reliably. It's on my list of "Learn this now you dumbshit" stuff I need to work on. @Skye 6A > 6B is a terrible option there. If bang does 2D the 6A, he'll hit me clean out of the 6B. It MAY trade, I honestly don't know but I'm not any better off if it does. If he teleports, then I'll get hit, no question. 2B, on the other hand, hits in both directions and is much quicker.
Skye Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Oh, you're right, sorry, I was confusing it for 5b, which has the same start up. Personally, I was theory fighting tick grabbing, a little delay off of the 5a, or jump directly over him with a j2d. If he's dead set on 2ding out of overheads, those may work out, and they set up for good conditioning.
Dacidbro Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 I don't think that's new, but very impressive. It's a damn hard combo.
Dacidbro Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 Oh, you're right, sorry, I was confusing it for 5b, which has the same start up. Personally, I was theory fighting tick grabbing, a little delay off of the 5a, or jump directly over him with a j2d. If he's dead set on 2ding out of overheads, those may work out, and they set up for good conditioning. I can tech greens on reaction, jump punish jD on reaction and I 2D his 6A on reaction too. Dabbit's right, 2B followup is definitely going to be the best choice, because then it forces me to C teleport and get nothing (and that's AFTER he gets a free punish for it the first time ). Oh, and Dabbit, I probably shouldn't tell you this but I noticed if I IB I can actually guard point in between your 5A's, so be careful with a string of more than 1.
Skye Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 I can tech greens on reaction, jump punish jD on reaction and I 2D his 6A on reaction too. Dabbit's right, 2B followup is definitely going to be the best choice, because then it forces me to C teleport and get nothing (and that's AFTER he gets a free punish for it the first time ). I was making suggestions, no need to theory fight to save yourself.
Dacidbro Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 Just giving you the reasons he doesn't use those, save you the experimentation. His curse tick grabs are pretty scary though. I'm historically too stupid to option select block grab, so every now and then I fuck up and counter hit myself instead of teching a grab. Since I've been teching on reaction now it hasn't happened nearly as often, but I bet online the tick grab/grab fakeout would work really, really well
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