[CS1] Mu-12 vs Valkenhayn

[FlyingVe]

Discussion for the Valkenhayn matchup should go here:

I figure it's about time this thread got going since Valk is out on PSN.

I will try to update the OP with the best information and matchup rating.

Mu-12 vs Valkenhayn: 6-4 Mu (subject to change for obvious reasons)

It seems like a pretty favorable matchup for Mu. Abuse his limited movement with steins and normals. Guard crush is also really strong in the matchup as the wolfman has only 4 GP and no viable reversal save his super.

-236A works as a good Valk repellent

-Be wary of Valks fast-fall. It can get him through steins and make him hard to AA

- Tools to use: j.c, steins, 236d, sod, 5c, 2c/6a. Those moves makes getting on Mu a living hell for valk

-IB>DP after 5B, 2B.\

-Do 6A's a little earlier to cope with his hitbox

-6C to punish ground super, 3C to punish air

Edited May 10, 2011 by Aginor

[MainG_Jago]

I agree this match is definitely in Mu-12 favor but Valk's 5c and 236a can be quite punishable for major damage because of its swiftness to dodge the stein lasers

also a good Valk likes to use 6a on Mu's 63215c and it sometimes works with no guard primer risks

[MainG_Jago]

i meant 63214c

[Grey]

I'm having major issues with this match-up, probably mostly because I don't know what on earth he's doing and what's safe and stuff. So for me, it seems like...

- he can get in pretty quickly with his wolf form

- his "Hell's Fang" covers a large amount distance relatively quickly while being + on block

- and his BBU overhead, although just average start-up, has a pretty subtle animation and also has similar start-up to his low kick (the one that can be followed up with another kick) so I keep getting owned by it

- his wolf pressure seems ok, but probably just because I don't know how to get out of it

- he does LOL damage to Mu's not so LOL health, 2 combos = gg

- his normals are really really good (Hakumen cries)

[Synthesis]

He should NEVER be approaching you in the air in wolf form. Bait it, and 2C CH him for massive damage. If he does a should tackle/BBU to get in, IB that shit and punish him. You can get a green throw directly after IBing and will get a throw counter if he does ANYTHING afterwards. Be patient and zone.

[Silfer]

I'm also having lots of problems with this matchup, I cant seem to get out of his pressure. It feels like everything is safe for him. Maybe its the netplay hurting me, but I'm not seeing the holes in his pressure.

What moves are unsafe or - on block?

Also, how do you go about aproaching him?, his 5C has a weird hitbox and hits jump-ins and his 2C is beastly. He is also not lacking in mobility since wolf canceling works just like hazama's chains.

I'm not really seeing the 6-4 here :S

[FlyingVe]

His important Frame Data:

2A +1

6B +8

6C +6

236A +2

Everything else is - on block.

I have not played this matchup personally as I am a poor 360 player, but I have spoken with a few PSN players about fighting Valk. All of the advice really comes down to 3 things:

1) Keep him away. He's fast as a wolf but can't block, jC and 2C him I guess.

2)Pressure him hard. Given his fastest poke (5A) is 6F abuse the hell out of Mu's 2B frame trap and the fact that his only good reversal is his super.

3) IB. I know this is good for every matchup, but Valk tends to rely on his rush to stay in, and if you IB it it's unsafe. Just like Tager and his sledge. If you take that option away, he'l have to AirDash or use the wolf to stay on you. IB>jab spam stops the wolf, and AA's deal with jump ins.

Also, my 6-4 might be totally off. It was just a guesstimate looking at footage and archetypes. If more people tell me it's easier/harder for Mu I'll gladly change it.

[Synthesis]

I say it's 6-4. Valkenhayn may be hard to get rid of when he gets on you, but seriously, IB DP or IB 2A will beat him.

[Silfer]

Yeah...the IB dilemma, waay to risky with my connection. But the pressure advice is good for me, I mostly zone him so, I'll give it a go. Maybe pressure with 236D...

[FlyingVe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he has a big hitbox right? Like Ragna and Hakumen sized? If that's the case that 236D stuff should work well as the fat characters can't jump out as easily. Maybe Valk will come out on 360 so I could test this stuff. But we all know that ain't happening.

[Grey]

Will try the suggestions the next time I play a decent Valkenhyne, cuz fortunately for me they're pretty rare at least for now :D

[Grey]

Played a pretty good Valk a fews ago and here's a few things I've noticed.

1. 2C does work as an anti-air, but if Valk sees it coming he can do some wolf shenanigans to change his trajectory and make 2C whiff which leads to rape. So 2C only when you're pretty sure it's gonna hit.

2. If he continues his block strings by transforming into wolf he can be jabbed out of it for counter hit.

3. Don't use j.C as a jump in because it will always whiff when he's in wolf form and it leads to big damage. j.B doesn't whiff but gets owned easily by anti-airs.

4. His air normal that kicks downward is pretty godly, only j.C at near max range seems to beat it iirc.

I think it might be in Mu's favour because she can keep him out somewhat, but just barely because Mu is screwed once he gets a single combo in, so maybe 5.5-4.5 or 5-5.

[C0R]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he has a big hitbox right? Like Ragna and Hakumen sized? If that's the case that 236D stuff should work well as the fat characters can't jump out as easily. Maybe Valk will come out on 360 so I could test this stuff. But we all know that ain't happening.

He's tall, and surprisingly wide, it's like if you took hakumen and made him more of an upstanding rectangle. Really tall actually now that I think about it, you can actually super jump over most of his special advances and punish with j.2c grounded CH if you're not locked in a hard blockstring.

Yeah, just checked. Black hunt first instance (236b), along with the startup of 236c charge (overhead) all have really low aerial hitboxes, and won't clip her body if you get airborne early enough. For the 236a 5b>5c shenanigans, there's really, really small windows, Mu's 623c is risky at best, the better valks will not eat DP. Grab mixups when you're prepared for IB is rough as well.

I've never, really had too much trouble with him. Most of the Valks that beat me get airborne asap, bait a 2c > Wolf > float me > Wall > Ow.

Thankfully, they tend to be rather stale, even at higher levels of play, and you can usually adapt appropriately.

Edited November 2, 2010 by C0R

[Grey]

If he does a should tackle/BBU to get in, IB that shit and punish him. You can get a green throw directly after IBing and will get a throw counter if he does ANYTHING afterwards. Be patient and zone.

Just wanted to note that if he cancels his tackle into wolf form dash, the throw after IB will whiff and you get CH. But other than that IB > throw beats all.

Also regarding his hitbox, it's pretty huge but I can't get the 2nd hit of 6B in throw > 6A > 6B to connect. Can someone verify if it's truly impossible or just has really strict timing?

Edited November 2, 2010 by Grey

[C0R]

I can't do it if it is. Valk seems to have a faster travel time when damaged, throw > 5c doesn't link when I tried either, though throw > 2b seemed reliable. When I went to training mode 6a juggle never resulted in a 2 hit 6b.

[Aginor]

It's actually pretty hard to get throw 6a 6b on valk. You have to time the 6a a lot earlier and 6b if you do it immediately after the 6a and the 2nd hit whiffs, you have to delay the 6b by a few frames. I find Valk to have this really weird hitbox. I think he lands faster than most other characters but it may just be me.

[FlyingVe]

In your opinion does his hitbox set up anything useful? Does it improve the effectiveness of 236D ala Hakumen or Ragna?

[Aginor]

Not as far as I can figure out now. He does have a wide hitbox so if you were to airdash backwards j.c and mu isn't facing valk, you will still be able to hit valk with j.c. The only thing as far as his hitbox goes in regards to combos is that, you have to time your 6a's earlier so valk can't tech.

[Aginor]

Back to this match up, I'd say this is 6-4 in Mu's favor for now.

Valk really has no good way of getting in on Mu. Tools to use: j.c, steins, 236d, sod, 5c, 2c/6a. Those moves makes getting on Mu a living hell for valk. Not to mention he only has 4 primers too. So it isn't too hard to guard break him.

If valk is pressuring you, moves to look out for are his shoulder charge, 5b, and 2b. You can ib those moves and DP. If you block valk's ground super, it's a free 6c FC. If you block the air super, free 3c CH. Only thing really is, don't let him 2c CH you because if he does, that's pretty much the round. lol Other than that, just try to block everything otherwise, you'll take a lot of damage. Valk's combos hurt. ;|

[C0R]

I've recently been playing an incredibly strong Valkenhayn player who goes by Kaigu in the local scene. Sadly I was never matched up with him on stream, so I don't have any Mu/Valk vids to show (But I had just gotten a new stick that day, so I was on sale anyway).

Here's an example of him using j.xDD to fastfall through shurikens, works just as well against lasers. Ame no Habaya fills the gap flawlessly though, so keep 236a prepped and ready.

Skip to 13:40 and on

[FlyingVe]

Is 236A really fast enough to do on reaction though? or are you suggesting using it somewhat liberally as a deterrent (which is pretty good in general)?

Also, with a fast fall he can safe jump Mu's 2C really easily, so be on point with your AA's.

[C0R]

Not on reaction no, but as a preventive countermeasure it works wonders.

[Aginor]

I think that shouldn't be a problem because of the fact that Mu can jump cancel steins. So if he tries to do that to get past, jump cancel and j.c if he's getting close or if he does it late, you can air dash back after the stein recovery.

[B.P.M.]

Playing both sides, I can get a little info.

1.) never approach in the air unless you have a 236D covering you. Valk can just go for ~4k if it hits

2.) Never throw random things out when he has 50 meter. If he blocks that 6b start crying.

3.) Try to stop pressuring his little butt when he has 50 meter. Free 3008 for valk. And that's like, a 3rd of mu's health?

4) Consider it a godsend if Valk approaches from the air. Just punish the fool.

[Aginor]

More like don't approach from the air otherwise I'm pretty sure he does a 7k combo on you with 50 meter. If he blocks 6b you can cancel into DP or SoD. Now if he IBs 6b and the follow up then start crying. I say still pressure him when he has 50 meter but just be wary of what moves you use.