Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[LastStarSaviour]

Heh, will do. But one thing I would like to mention though guys. I'm not bashing the game to hell, i'm really not. There are just things in the game that i've found and or experienced that I want to make light of to see if it has some grounds with you guys as well. I do highly enjoy Kof and want to take part in it. These things just make me feel uneasy when I don't or haven't played anyone at a truly high-level. I will continue to snap however, since my credibility is on the line when I do anything with you guys.

[Seiki]

I'm not liking SCV. It just feels so rock paper scissors. Should I feel bad that I like Marvel more than SCV?

[Papstr]

I'm not liking SCV. It just feels so rock paper scissors. Should I feel bad that I like Marvel more than SCV?

no

[Astaroth136]

I'm not liking SCV. It just feels so rock paper scissors. Should I feel bad that I like Marvel more than SCV?

Welcome to every fighting game ever made. 3D games are MUCH slower than 2D, so it's less rock/paper/scissors-esque. In fact, you have more options than rock/paper/scissors since you can crouch highs, sidestep verticals, option-select throw breaks from ANYTHING, and jump or tech jump (which beats lows and throws).

It's okay to not like the game, but saying there's too many R/P/S moments is fallacious.

[Seiki]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't saying that there are a lot of r/p/s moments it just feels that way, but that's probably my lack of experience.

I have a pretty good understanding of the game's mechanics but I often find myself just guessing in many situations between two options and i witness kind of the same thing on tourney streams. I'm probably not playing the game right.

[Jackie Chandler]

Damn it, it's always the days I don't check the thread that it explodes with new content.

Billy- Nice, I hope moments like that happen more often for ya. I lol'd at "Felt so Chandler man." And your recent images in general.

@KoF- I could go in-depth with this, but I'd rather keep it brief. KoF definitely isn't a bad game, and I don't think Star's trying to argue that it is- it's just a very different game with pretty different *raises flame shield* fundamentals. Especially compared to Blazblue.

Just hear me out. Blazblue puts a huge emphasis on combo memorization and capitalizing off random hits. KoF puts more focus on reacting to situations knowledgeably and earning more random hits that normally don't amount to much. In Blazblue, you're rewarded for knowing your character's utility and move properties, which let you analyze situations and react appropriately. In KoF, you're rewarded for knowing your opponent's utilities and how to set up/escape things like frame traps, which require you to understand the situation before it happens and react appropriately. Meter in Blazblue can be used for pretty much anything, like making a DP safe, and isn't used very liberally. Meter in KoF is mostly used for priority and doing more damage, and it's used very often. So what does all this have to do with fundamentals?

To abbreviate things, the point I'm trying to make is that fundamentals aren't as universal as people like to make them. To me, good fundamentals in Blazblue mean knowing your character, earning the most damage in their combos, and reacting to situations as they happen. In KoF, however, I feel like good fundamentals mean knowing your matchups, dealing more hits than your opponent, and planning to react to things before they happen based on prior knowledge. Depending on the game, the risk/reward of utilizing your "fundamentals" are always going to be different. It's just something you'll need to accept if you want to improve after moving from one game to a different one.

That said, I think Star's problem with KoF may be that he's playing it like he would BB. If you step into KoF more open-minded and accept that you're going to have to put time and dedication into relearning those kinds of fundamentals specifically for KoF, I think you'd enjoy it a lot more Star. The same goes for Soul Calibur and you, Naimat.

Milln- I still play KoF. Just not as much as I'd like to. :[

[Top_Cat]

Jackie for MTN mediator.

[Milln]

In this thread: People that play a game for a bit, make an assumption, decide they understand the game(moreso than people that have been playing the genre longer than they have), then stop playing it or say "no that's not what I meant" when called out on it.

Midnight, I need you to be here in the morning, thursday, brudduh. We gotta grab Papstr and I have to detour to McMinnville. I might have to pick up Klein, too.

What is this, Milln Chauffeur Service? 30 bucks in gas from all of you. (maybe just twenty)

Edited February 29, 2012 by Milln

[Papstr]

Yea i think Jackie's got a point. Fundamentals go across all fighting games, but theres still fundamentals to specific genres. Like, 3D fighters, while the basics are still there (don't do stupid unsafe shit, don't get hit) the ideas of side stepping add more "fundamentals." Same goes for animu fighters like Blazblue and Guilty Gear. You've got different types of blocking and airdashes n shit in addition to worrying about mix up, block strings, anti air, and blah blah.

Also I hate cats.

Milln: I hope you come by like, after 3. I have an important speech to give at the 12:00 - 1:20 mark, and then have an assignment to hand in at the 3:00 - 4:20 mark. Though I can easily hand in my shit and leave for the latter case. Though I can probably email the assignment and explain the situation for the latter case. Yea.

[Top_Cat]

Midnight, I need you to be here in the morning, thursday, brudduh. We gotta grab Papstr and I have to detour to McMinnville. I might have to pick up Klein, too.

What is this, Milln Chauffeur Service? 30 bucks in gas from all of you. (maybe just twenty)

Alright, what time?

Also I hate cats.

I don't know how I feel about this.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Top_Cat

[Seiki]

I agree with Chandler.

@Milln: Yeah that "isnt what I meant". I used the word "feel" and not "is" for a specific reason.

[Milln]

When people say "fundamentals" they mean basic, bare bones fundamentals that apply to any fighter. Ie don't do stupid unsafe crap and expect to not get punished, learn your pokes, know how/when to block, know how to escape, yadda yadda. Stuff like different types of blocking, types of jumps are fundamentally part of whatever game youre playing, but it's not what anyone means when one says "fundamentals".

@Midday: I'll text you.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Milln

[Top_Cat]

I had a dream that astaroth beat me with platinum D; wtf

[Klein]

I had a dream that astaroth beat me with platinum D; wtf

You realized that every Tager player secretly has a pocket Platinum to whip out when the time is right.

[Grimstar]

When people say "fundamentals" they mean basic, bare bones fundamentals that apply to any fighter. Ie don't do stupid unsafe crap and expect to not get punished, learn your pokes, know how/when to block, know how to escape, yadda yadda. Stuff like different types of blocking, types of jumps are fundamentally part of whatever game youre playing, but it's not what anyone means when one says "fundamentals".

That's pretty much what I'm talking about when I refer to fundamentals. Because I don't refer to "blazblue fundamentals" I just say "stupid shit"

[Milln]

You realized that every Tager player secretly has a pocket Platinum to whip out when the time is right.

If they don't whip out their GIGANTIC TAGER

[LastStarSaviour]

I'll go ahead and make my first point:

First, I want to start off with one thing that has been kind of annoying to get hit by, this is the cross-up. Now I know what you're all saying, "How can getting hit by a simple cross-up be annoying? It's a simple part of fighting game "fundamentals" and reacting to them is simple for any decent player." To this, I do agree and I have no qualms with the times that I am hit by a proper over-head that I failed to react to. But, what i'm not okay with is when i'm in the exact same position I was when my opponent threw out his last move which crossed up but instead this time it decided "Meh, kind of don't feel like crossing my opponent up today." and you, already reacting to what you thought was going to be a "proper" cross-up got hit. This leaves me in a "WTF!?!" state seeing as I have A) Learned how to deal with cross-ups with multiple characters who have them at every angle and possible space and B) Prepared myself to deal with the next time a cross-up was going to happen. The funny thing is is that I wouldn't even have a problem with getting hit by them if it wasn't for the fact that getting hit by this leads to you losing about 60% of your life (at least for any high-tier character to my knowledge, which are quite a few in the game) and any person with the execution and skill enough to do so (Not many people I have fought actually do have this level of execution due to them either not knowing combos or just don't have execution to begin with) but the people who do have punished me for this much of my health everytime. So let's review, fundamentally I knew what was taking place and i've prepared myself properly but still got punished and lost 60% of my health to bs? That's fair, Kof.

Anyone who believes they understand are welcome to comment if they feel, but please try to give an educated response.

[Top_Cat]

Getting crossed up isn't exclusive to KOF. In every 2d fighter I've ever played, you can get crossed up. As far as eating 60% health, your opponent is going to have to sacrifice a lot of stock/meter to accomplish that, which can potentially put them in a disadvantageous position (IE, when milln was roflstomping me at kof, I landed a King combo that costed all my stock and half my meter that left me in a position that I couldn't bring back). There are several similar scenarios in BB. Say you get crossed up by tao's j.2b. If your even somewhat close to the corner, you're going to eat ~5k from an AB2 combo if tao has 50 meter by the time she gets to 6C.

[LastStarSaviour]

I know that obviously Kof isn't the only game with cross-ups, what i'm trying to get at is that i've planned and would have otherwise blocked the cross-up but for some reason I get hit for baiting it correctly. I'm not stupid Midnight.

Edit: Also, many characters do possess combos that are 60% that do not require them using every last bit of meter they have.

[Top_Cat]

I know that obviously Kof isn't the only game with cross-ups, what i'm trying to get at is that i've planned and would have otherwise blocked the cross-up but for some reason I get hit for baiting it correctly. I'm not stupid Midnight.

Blocking a cross-up in kof is the same as blocking one in any other game. If you block incorrectly, you get hit. There isn't a magical reason that would cause you to get hit if you plan on blocking the cross-up other than simply blocking wrong. I'm not calling you stupid lol. You're implying that you're getting crossed up when you shouldn't, when, truthfully, you just didn't actually block correctly.

[LastStarSaviour]

idk, I doubt this is the case. Reason being is that the moves I get hit by and the angle I get hit by them normally are considered cross-ups. However, the occasion that I mention are when a move specifically is a cross-up however when it hits me as just a normal move. It's kind of weird to type and explain. It may have to deal with the state they're in in the air. But it feels more like a game error than a human one.

Edited February 29, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Seiki]

Well Star the mechanics in KOF are pretty unique. I just learned this while playing yesterday but if you are right next to someone who is standing still and you hop you wont cross them up, but if they are moving forward, even ever so slightly, you will. So those moments you find inconsistent actually has a specific causality.

KOF is all about very small minor kinks and quirks like this that require some investigation and isn't very orthodox to how say other fighting games does cross-ups or other basic mechanics you find in other fighting games.

As for 60% damage, it really isn't that much if you look at an entire kof match as a marvel match. So instead of thinking of it as 60% off 100 health...it's more like 20% off 300 health (if you combine all 3 teammates' health)

A KOF match consists of the entire team and each one's actions in terms of meter and drive usage and how many matches they survive drastically affects their teammates decisions.

You really think it's OP to burn a significant amount of resources just to blow 1/5 of a team's health? Like Midnight said meter and drive aren't just tools to dish out damage. You use it to blowback or defense roll (or w/e it's called). You use ex moves with invincibility to get people off of you. and when you do 60% damage on someone and sacrifice your ability to use these other tools you are risking putting yourself at a disadvantage in the future when you don't have meter to save your ass.

A good example of this is the character King. Now King has great zoning and doesn't really need meter to dish out damage, but once any rushdown character goes in on her the matchup becomes atleast 6:4 if she has no meter to blowback/defense roll/ex dp. So a smart player isn't going to be blowing all the meter in the world before king comes in without considering that maybe the survivability of that person's team is worth more than dishing out damage.

Now 60% damage on a single character has it's purpose for being in the game. The reason why it's in the game is because if there is a character that just completely runs through your team you are given the option to blow a lot of resources focusing on this one character to get rid of him/her. This helps balance bad matchups. but there is a risk, you blew through resources that could have been spread out over the opponent's entire team but you instead chose to focus it all on one character because you thought that character was the central problem. I guarantee you after you dish out 60% damage you won't be doing it again for a bit because even 2 bars takes a bit to build. Meaning this is the opponent's opportunity to either:

a)go on the offense since you lost several defensive options(blowback/defense roll/ex invinc. move)

b)or, because he/she was getting hit by your 60% combo your opponent was getting meter for it and can now dish out his/her own 60% combo!

[Klein]

Star, I'd imagine what You're experiencing is just good ambiguous crossups, if you could easily just plan on them and react to them they wouldn't work.

[LastStarSaviour]

I don't think it's OP to take 60% of a character's life. I think it's OP to take 60% of someone's life for moving even the slightest bit. You would think the game would still register the move you do the same regardless if your opponent moved even the slightest bit, at least in my head anyways. This is one reason i'm kind of drawn away from the game.

Also, I understand that Kof is a team-based game and the needs of one character does not out-weigh the needs of everyone else, etc... (the rest of what you posted was kind of stating the obvious)

[LastStarSaviour]

Star, I'd imagine what You're experiencing is just good ambiguous crossups, if you could easily just plan on them and react to them they wouldn't work.

You guys are twisting the context of my post around.