Isorropia Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Your snide comments are well appreciated, but if you have never played against anyone decent then I understand why you think the way you do. You just don't seem to understand what it means to jump cancel a move. To elaborate: Bang's 2B, connecting on the first active frame, has 2 more active frames + 20 recovery frames, and is -6 on block. This means it inflicts 16 frames of blockstun. Bang can jump cancel as the move connects (anytime in the recovery, but lets assume he does is as soon as possible). Allowing 4 pre-jump frames, bang is in the air while you are still in blockstun for 12 more frames. In other words, by jump cancelling, bang is at +12. So, If you jump cancel a move 9 out of 10 times then I will air grab you or AA you 9 out of 10 times simple as that. It's not that simple. If it is for you, stop playing scrubs. If your opponents are +12 in the air and get hit by tager's 'anti-airs' around 30f after they were able to move, it's the player that's failing, not the character.
Dusty Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Your snide comments are well appreciated, but if you have never played against anyone decent then I understand why you think the way you do. You just don't seem to understand what it means to jump cancel a move. To elaborate: Bang's 2B, connecting on the first active frame, has 2 more active frames + 20 recovery frames, and is -6 on block. This means it inflicts 16 frames of blockstun. Bang can jump cancel as the move connects (anytime in the recovery, but lets assume he does is as soon as possible). Allowing 4 pre-jump frames, bang is in the air while you are still in blockstun for 12 more frames. In other words, by jump cancelling, bang is at +12. So, It's not that simple. If it is for you, stop playing scrubs. If your opponents are +12 in the air and get hit by tager's 'anti-airs' around 30f after they were able to move, it's the player that's failing, not the character. Going with your data assuming that bang is +12 lets look at bang's J.C move. The start up is 12 frames meaning that by the time it hits, both players will be at even but that's assuming that you do the move rising into the air which isn't going to hit anybody. So you have to wait till you jump allows you to come down to hit with the jump in by that time your imaginary super good +12 is gone and air grab and AA says hello. Looks like I'm not the one playing scrubs, and im pretty sure you have a pretty scruby mentality if YOU think the way you do. but i'm happy you think this way because the more players like you around the easier I can win matches braindead by people letting me get away with jumping all over their head like mario.
Isorropia Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Going with your data assuming that bang is +12 lets look at bang's J.C move. The start up is 12 frames meaning that by the time it hits, both players will be at even but that's assuming that you do the move rising into the air which isn't going to hit anybody. So you have to wait till you jump allows you to come down to hit with the jump in by that time your imaginary super good +12 is gone and air grab and AA says hello. Looks like I'm not the one playing scrubs, and im pretty sure you have a pretty scruby mentality if YOU think the way you do. but i'm happy you think this way because the more players like you around the easier I can win matches braindead by people letting me get away with jumping all over their head like mario. I'm not sure why you're taking all of this so personally, it's quite possible to discuss the ins and outs of a fighting game matchup on the internet without getting agitated. Now, after testing it seems you can't jump cancel as early as I thought (it's 1f later), so it's actually +11 rather than +12. (Could even be +10...bang's j.B hits rising no gap, j.C has a gap, on testing.) Now, the +11 isn't 'imaginary'. It's there. It's fact. It's not as useful as +11 when both people are grounded, but I never said it was. What I said was, that bang is able to move significantly before tager can. No matter how you try to spin it, this means that bang has more options available in this situation than tager does. You seem to be assuming that to jump cancel means to jump forward and hit with a falling aerial attack. This is not the only option bang has available to him. A few examples of what bang can do are: airdash j.4B crossup. airdash backwards escape. TK Dnails. Double jump falling aerial (double jumps will get above the hitbox of 2C and AC, but still allow them to hit 2C and AC out of their recovery). Now all of these can be punished (except Dnails), but what I am suggesting is that they cannot all be punished at once, and by the same method. This means that tager has to choose how to act in this situation, with options that have varying risk/reward (just like every situation in a fighting game). It would only be considered 'unsafe' for bang if the overall risk/reward for the various options was heavily stacked against him, and I don't believe that is the case here (with this specific example of 2B jump cancel, but also for bang's pressure game in general).
Dusty Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Thank you for proving my point. Yes the majority of the options are punishable after bang jumps which is the point and yes you cannot cover all the options no matter what you do. But the odds are stacked against bang in this situation. You can jump and try to air grab bang if it wiffs then no biggie come back to the ground and block. You can use your fast anti air like 2A and if bang double jumps 2A will recover then you can smack him with 2C or collider. There are also countless other options to get out as well once bang hits the air. Bangs pressure is bad, jump canceling was never really a good way to apply pressure in BB, but i guess if you want to get ran by it, you can get ran by it. Not my problem I'm not taking this personally, I'm just calling out a dumb scrub.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 Your argument hurts me and you all. Now before I dive in and get some mod work done I have to talk about Bang a bit. In neutral Bang has mobility, even if he jump cancels 7IAD will always beat a air punish attempt even if you IB, it doesn't help that he can jump back and throw nails to shut you down or worse look for the air grab and break it. Of course this can apply to anti air's as well. Wake up guys! No one has to get hit by a anti air if they expect it! Meaning they can bait it and punish you or do something unexpected. For example are you gonna mash 2C if Bang has 2 bumpers over your head, one on each side? I hope not because you can and will be baited and punished accordingly. Ok I am gonna do other stuff. Now guys...spread the love please. I can't spread it myself.
huey253 Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 Bang's pressure is ok. from my point of view... i'll do 5A 5B 2B for example and... First i'll look at the time on the clock, and then my stock of nails. if there is 85+ seconds, i'll usually avoid using nails unless i really need to. meaning, i'll jump cancel my 2B into... A. 9 jump B. iAD forward j4B C. 7 jump (won't do if magnetized) D. 2C (only if i think you won't ib/punish me, tager can always ib B buster 2C if they ib, which also beats the super crash unless i time it to frame trap, which isn't so easy anymore) iAD j4B is usually used on people that won't do anything about it (aka not so good players) because the risk v reward isn't high enough for me to feel safe doing it. doing jumpback airgrab (for every character) beats all of bang's more viable options and is a very good tool. rising jB/jC leads into no damage, so i don't know if that is much of a call out. tager airgrab recovers faster than most characters so its not that huge of a risk again it isn't a beat all kind of thing, but bang's call out to this isn't very good imo. bang's pressure is still decent though.
Hateraid Red Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) Jump back throw works well until it's sniffed out, really. It's not a go to everytime. Bang can do iad back b nail cancel and more or less keep the pressure on. Esp in the corner. Bang can always j.d you if you are a repeat offender too and that can be a huge pay off on CH. It's all about calling out bad habits on both sides, imo Edited August 12, 2011 by Hateraid Red
Manta Posted August 18, 2011 Posted August 18, 2011 All of Bang's drives are unsafe and only 2D is jump cancellable on block. The other two cancel into specials but double palm thrust is also -7 which is punishable in thoery (Don't try to reversal it, 5D > 623B is watertight unless you can do an akira IB 720 in a two frame gap, the other two ground drive are more perfect blockstrings). A smart bang won't leave himself in 360B range when he ends his string on a double palm thrust, but you can still 5A and 720 him. 2D isn't special cancellable or indeed cancellable into anything other than a jump. Play the yomi collider/2C game here
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