[CS2] Iron Tager vs Haku-men

[A.X.I.S.]

Man this is gonna be so crazy.

Lets talk about how much yomi we need to pull through this.

Thread name subject to change.

Haku-men...I hate this match up, so boring and easy to get lamed out.

Its like Litchi except you are more scared to press buttons and the pressure is non-existent.

Problem/Solution:

• -4C-Hate this move and hate it again, really fast, huge horizontal hitbox, leads to decent damage because of special cancels, special cancels make it a bigger nuisance, IB 4C or if you are close and he's magnetized 4D it with yomi.
  
• -J.C-4C's Brother that comes from the air, IB it to reduce push back, always IB it, if Haku is not cautious with the spacing you can actually 2D him from below or collider. Most of the time you won't get this chance though.
  
• -Counters-Every Haku likes to counter certain things, test their reactions and learn when and where they counter. FYI The good Haku's will counter things on reaction while the bad ones just mash it.
  
• -Hotaru-Its a DP...leads to good damage and lets him do a second jump even if he air dashed, you can beat it with backdash but thats some mad yomi you got there.
  

Close/Mid Range:

Block if he is on the ground or in the air or doing pokes, he got annoying frame traps.

When you are on the offense mess with his reactions a bit and rely on yomi.

Yes I said rely on yomi, you need it, do anything you can to train Haku not to jump or mash j.D.

Then punish him with grabs, once he is Magnetized you can use 5D to safely punish button pushes, just don't rely on the pull to suck him back in, 4D is also a decent punish tool too.

Long Range:

Get spark and sit on it, use it wisely.

Be risky but pick your times, the only way in is to be risky anyways.

Remember to always IB his C pokes to reduce push back, don't make habits of pressing buttons because Haku will punish you for it, normal jump C is a good way in, just remember 4C is air unblockable.

In short the match up is full of mind games, its like SF except your a stubby fat guy and the dude your fighting is poking you with a huge stick.

Have fun.

Edited May 24, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Shervin]

i eat hakus up ill try to answer whichever questions people have

[Mucky]

i eat hakus up ill try to answer whichever questions people have

What do you do when he activates Mugen?

[Heroic_Legacy]

Laugh.

[Shervin]

yeah, i dont fight many hakumens/any hakumens who actually use mugen. especially since you can burst if they land a hit on you. if someone DID activate it against me, id honestly try to rush them down. theyd feel a lot more inclined to hit you and be reckless before the mugen runs out so you have a chance to catch them doing something stupid and get to hit them.

imo its easier to attack than it is to defend against mugen. they can get a lucky hit on you if you just sit back and try to block all his bs.

[DoomieJ]

yeah, i dont fight many hakumens/any hakumens who actually use mugen. especially since you can burst if they land a hit on you.

Easiest way to bait a burst is to power up, go in, get a hit, and block. You definatly want to look out for people who are intelligent enough to know you have bursts and are gonna use them to not die.

Just a lesson from GG.

[Hain]

It's unfortunate, but from my experience, the only way to get a Hakumen player to actually respect Tager is by having a Spark Bolt ready at all times. Get your electric gauge up as fast as possible, and hit him the moment he whiffs any sword attack. Combo appropriately, and keep control to the best of your ability.

Beyond that, the best you can do is check sloppy approaches, specifically his aerials. If he comes in low, iron fist. If he's coming in high, Atomic Collider. If he's trying to get over you, 2C. The basics.

With Hakumen's 4C and specials, any ground approach you do will have to be timed to perfection. Keep an eye open for his 3C, and alternatively, the Haku-stomp: if you're fast enough seeing this coming, it's easily punishable.

I wouldn't advise Gadget Finger in this match-up unless you really know your opponent: with Hakumen's drive, Any attempt at attacking regularly can end in a reversal. Try a late 360 or an Atomic Collider if you're really up to it. I perfer ending combos with a 2D or one of Tager's situational mind games; 2D gives plenty of magnetism and pushes Haku-men closer and closer to the corner. Just watch out for the drive.

Magnetism is one of your best friends in this match-up, but be careful: a good Hakumen player can very easily punish sloppy attempts at pulling him in. Still, it'll force him to think twice before making a jab with that sword of his.

Again, these are just conclusions based on my experiences with Hakumen. If you find anything wrong, please point it out.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

I have a question for you Hain. when I saw this match ups. I see a lot of Hakus just 4C for most of the match. Is there a way to bait 4C?

[C0R]

I have a question for you Hain. when I saw this match ups. I see a lot of Hakus just 4C for most of the match. Is there a way to bait 4C?

You can superjump over it. He'll just recover, hop back, and j.c you, but it pushes him into the corner eventually.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

You can superjump over it. He'll just recover, hop back, and j.c you, but it pushes him into the corner eventually.

So I take damage for it. Well at least it doesn't lead into a combo. I wish 4c was never born.

[Hain]

The best you can do to bait 4C is to stand on the very end of it's hitbox, and when he swings, backdash-sparkbolt. A riskier tactic is to stand on the same location and voltic charge, if it's an aggressive Haku he'll rush in and try to combo you up close. This is where a 720 comes in, though a Magna-Tech Wheel>pickup can yield some promising results as well.

It's probably better to go for the Spark Bolt, though. Magnetism and a decent combo, ending with him close enough to easily shut up any further attempts at 4C. Be careful, though. Hakumen's got other tricks up his sleeve.

Ah, I almost forgot. A magnetized 6A, if done correctly, can punish a 4C-spammer. Make sure not to begin the move while in range, though, 6A's super armor doesn't kick in immediately.

Also, super-jump and take a j-C? That's more likely to end with you in the corner then the Hakumen. If you're going to try and jump, use j.D while he's magnetized to throw off his positioning, and hit him with whatever feels best at the time. Usually a j.C or j.B. Don't use 2C, though, the delay will get you hit.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Hain

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Lots of spacing and mindgames goes into this match up.

[Hain]

Of course.

Though this really belongs in the 'general discussion' area, I'd advise you to learn how to play just a little bit of each character in the game if you plan on playing Tager. Knowing what your opponent's options are, and what their first and second thoughts in a situation are, will set you miles ahead of them on the field.

'Know your enemy, know yourself, and you may fight a hundred battles without disaster.'

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Dude I been playing Tager since CT. I never tried that though. I know how to play Tager, but I'm too lazy to learn the other characters. Thanks for the tip.

[A.X.I.S.]

Updated first page.

The threats are all tools to keep you out FYI.

[Shervin]

im gonna try to get some of my matches v hakus uploaded to show you guys decently effective ways to get past hakumens bs

[Coopa]

I know this isn't much, but when I've noticed a Hakumen has enough meter for his TK overhead (I think it's 3 orbs?) and I see a dash, it feels more reliable for me to hold back versus holding down back. I can't count on reactions for everything because this match gets me stressed out.

So, what I'm saying is, it's better to take the throw or 3c than the overhead, but feel free to correct me. This of course changes based on your position on the screen.

Also, bursts, in this matchup ,seem to be highly dependent on position. A lot of hakumens I've played will burst out of the corner, burst to prevent them from being in the corner, or burst from being killed (duh). For me, I'm looking for a green burst that will put them into the corner, or a gold burst to push them into the corner, but that's just me.

Also, I think transitions from 5c to 5d are okay, but transitions from 5d to whatever are not. Too many hakumens are just looking for a counter. 5c 2d doesn't seem to exist in this matchup as well. Walking 720 when hakumen is in the corner seems to be a godsend. When I knock him down in the corner, I try not to take 1 guess mixups because by then, I expect them to have meter to get out.

For example, you 2d them into the corner, I do not 360, 720, or atomic collider afterwards, I just wait. It's better to safely pressure them until they crack, in my opinion. Then, you wait for a reactable opening. Jump = atomic collider or 5c for more safety, then standing there = poke. Ticks are fine, but after conditioning them, etc, etc.

720 as a form of getting back your damage seems to be so important, but I use it to threaten my opponent into getting antsy--sorta like spark bolt. That's my advice for now, I guess.

Also, it seems Hakumens I play have this weird thing about jump D. I think its because the whiff recovery is pretty small, so if they whiff something, they sometimes go jump D to counter whatever thing you might try to use as a punish or pressure tool. My advice is to just expect it sometimes and 360b to condition them into stopping that.

Also, another note. Visually confirm Hakumen landing on the ground. I don't think his low pokes are fast enough to where you need to move from back to downback so quickly.

The reason I say this is to avoid double overheads. Do your best to minimize damage as you push Hakumen into the corner. I pretty much feel this matchup is similar to Dhalsim versus Gief (normal-wise), and if he gets out of the corner, you might have to do the walk of shame and just go die.

So, at best, I think you get at max 3 tries during a match to push hakumen into a corner. At least, if you took a lot of damage pushing him into the corner, you get 1 good shot at it, so it's all about being patient and then learning how to explode when the time is right.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Coopa