[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[gli]

I asked because it's up for play and it doesn't hurt to try to find out anyway.

Got anything else you want to test?

[Tari]

j.2C special cancelling is actually really hard to remember to do, at least for me. I think it's largely because I tend to use j.2C air combo enders for gimmicks and resets, not legitimate pressure.

I'll check special cancelling throws later on.

[Tari]

New stuff: wind regen is, er, stiffer. It comes back less rapidly or reliably than before. TD for wind regen from 0 wind got me all of 1.5 wind stock. Noticed that I often had less wind than expected.

Throw is not special cancellable.

I think combos are worth cutting short in some situations for better oki, now, because of combos reaching 0 damage earlier than in CS2.

[gli]

Thanks.

Even more importance on wind management then.

[Tari]

Alright, some more notes:

1) j.2C on counterhit can be cancelled into pumpkin and continued as a combo (not really important, since you can just land and combo, too, but eh.) On normal hit, pumpkin summon with wind is a frame trap. Beats Relius' 5A, though we aren't sure how many frames his 5A is. j.2C CH > j.214A is super unsafe, lol.

2) 3C hits Makoto 3 times (4 times if you do 3[C]). Not sure whether this is different from CS2 or not, though.

3) Tempest Dahlia actually only regens 1 wind stock, no matter how many wind you have when you start. It's basically 1.5 stock, though, because of the blockstun and whatnot. Overall wind regen feels like it accelerates slower and just fills up slower.

4) j.B hitbox is buffed, almost for sure at this point. Seems to hit a bit lower, and works on standing Bang in '5B > jc j.B3D > j.C > 5B', whereas in CS2 that didn't work.

5) Cat chair is still good against overheads and certain moves. Not a viable spam move anymore (for obvious reasons).

6) This is true in the current game, too, I think, but '5B > 5CD > 6C > j.214B > 2/3D > j.B' frame traps and acts as a delayed overhead, as opposed to 6C > j.C, as j.C is not overhead.

[Tari]

And a last bit of notes:

5B does 550 damage in CSEX by itself, and 294 damage after a gold burst. Assuming that gold burst P1 is still 65 and P2 is still 110, Rachel's character combo rate went from 85% to about 75%. Feel free to check my math on this.

Also, on Tempest Dahlia and overall wind regen: while TD itself doesn't offer great wind regen, Rachel's overall wind regen isn't all that much worse. There's a bit more of trying to space yourself from the opponent or doing non-winded pressure, though, all with the goal of staying grounded and recovering wind.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Tari

[Kuuhaku]

3C hits Makoto the same amount in CS2.

6B CH can be comboed off of without wind. You can run forward and 5B if you hit them from mid screen. This might not work if you're far from the wall.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Bohemian Polka

[kotokot]

http://www27.atwiki.jp/reityeruwiki/pages/103.html jp wiki combos

[Tari]

Nice combo list. Doesn't look like there's much different from CS2, and everything's pretty much self-explanatory.

Don't really feel like translating, so here's a list of terms as pulled from a couple combos:

'2A>5B>5C+D>3C>8D>5B>jc>JC+2D>9jc>LV2>蛙>5B>Aﾛﾍﾞ>放電>Aﾛﾍﾞ>5B>jc>JC>空ｱｲﾘｽ>着地>JC>jc>JC>Aﾛﾍﾞ'

• 蛙 - frog
  
• Aﾛﾍﾞ - A lobelia
  
• 放電 - electricity/frog activates
  
• 空ｱｲﾘｽ - air iris
  
• 着地 - landing
  
  
  
  
  
  
  '2A×2>5B>6CD>JC>微ダッシュ5B>5CC>B大砲>5CC'
  
  
  • 微ダッシュ - short dash
    
  • B大砲 - B cannon (lobelia and cannon are interchangeable terms)
    
    
    
    
    
    '6投げ>5B>jc>JC>LV2バウンド>2A(スカ)>5C(スカ)C>蛙>5B>A大砲>ダッシュ5CC>3C(1HIT)>アイリス>3C(3HIT)'
    
    
    • 投げ - throw (the number indicates direction of the throw)
      
    • LV2バウンド - level 2 bound (ie: level 2 j.2C); also written simply as "LV2", as in the first combo
      
    • スカ - whiff
      
    • アイリス - (sword) iris
      

    random other terms:

    [*]空Aロベ - air A lobelia (not too common. combos tend to leave off the 'air' (空) part)

    [*]ディレイ - delay

    [*]リリー - (baden baden) lily

    [*]カエル - frog

    [*]カボチャ - pumpkin

    [*]ロリコン - 'lolicon' - refers to this combo: "sj8D > air dash j.236A > lvl 3 j.2C"

    [*]

    [*]2段9j - 2 to 9 jump input (the 段 is, I believe, used to indicate going from one directional input to another)

    [*]ちょい歩き - short walk (ちょい is short, 歩き is walk)

    [*]

    [*]画面端 - corner/end of screen

    [*]青肉 - 'aoniku' - refers to this combo: "lvl 2 j.2C > 236B > j.C > j.C > Air Iris > land BBL > sj8D > air dash j.236A > lvl 3 j.2C > frog > ender"

    [*]追加 - followup (as in 5C追加C)

Edited November 15, 2011 by Tari

[kotokot]

lolicon afaik j.236A>j.2C lv3.

[[SpA]Relentless]

青肉 - aoniku (not sure what this means in combos, lol)

Afaik Aoniku was the Rachel player with the highest PSR in CS2, and there was a combo named after him. Look here and here (1:59).

[Tari]

lolicon afaik j.236A>j.2C lv3.

Yeah, seems about right. The only reason I'm not 100% on that definition is because in one of the combos, there's "lolicon > j.2C > frog", which makes very little sense. I assume it's just a typo, though:

'2C(ch)>7D>リリー>ロリコン>J2C>カエル>裏回り3C>(5B)>JC>LV2バウンド>A(ｽｶ)>5C(ｽｶ)追加C>カボチャ>アイリス>カエル'

Relentless;1192876']Afaik Aoniku was the Rachel player with the highest PSR in CS2' date=' and there was a combo named after him. Look here and here (1:59).

Ah, thanks for that. Didn't know they decided to name that combo after him.

So... 'aoniku' is apparently the "lvl 2 j.2C > 236B > j.C > j.C > Air Iris > land BBL > sj8D > air dash j.236A > lvl 3 j.2C > frog > ender" combo, then. Hm.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Tari

[Tari]

Don't know if it was explicitly stated anywhere, but j.2C is special-cancellable on any hit, not only air hit. Not cancellable on block or whiff, of course. Updated the first post with relevant information from the past few days.

[DSveno]

• ロリコン - 'lolicon' - refers to this combo: "sj8D > air dash j.236A > lvl 3 j.2C"
  

Any reason this one is called "lolicon"? I can't seem to find any connection.

[Tari]

If I had to make a guess, I'd think it was because the 'air dash > j.236A' causes Rachel to basically flip open her skirt above the opponent's face.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Haha awesome, that sounds plausible enough to be true :>

[swordiris]

I was never a 2c spammer (as the move is highly punishable) but still that frightens me. There were a lot of tricks that could be pulled off with 2C and I knew how to combo out of them.

Oh well I will adapt.

[Tari]

I was never a 2c spammer (as the move is highly punishable) but still that frightens me. There were a lot of tricks that could be pulled off with 2C and I knew how to combo out of them.

Oh well I will adapt.

You can still 2C overheads and certain other moves. It shouldn't be too big an issue. The delayed guardpoint is more just something people will have to adjust to.

[swordiris]

You can still 2C overheads and certain other moves. It shouldn't be too big an issue. The delayed guardpoint is more just something people will have to adjust to.

not the j. 2c nerf (although that sucks too) I meant the cat chair.

[Tari]

j.2C didn't get nerfed. It got buffed. The loss of lvl2 primer break is a non-issue, basically.

The cat chair is still viable against overheads and certain jump-ins and whatnot. It's just not a "if I mash 2C during your blockstring, I'll get out and get 5K damage" deal anymore.

[swordiris]

It also seems as if Rachel has faster wind gain from the videos. Anyone else notice?

[Tari]

Initial recovery seems slower, later recovery may be faster. Overall, the amount of wind regenerated hasn't changed much in combos and the likes, but the slow start is noticeable in certain situations. For example, Tempest Dahlia now recovers about 1 bar of wind total.

[Herbal Grey]

It looks to me like the a-lobelia is lower to the ground. was this already noted? sorry if i missed it.

Edit: or maybe it just falls differently. Explain please? it "looks" different lol

Edited December 1, 2011 by Herbal Grey

[Kuuhaku]

From what I remember when playing, it looked the same. Also, aside from being more risky to throw out and getting less damage, 2C is pretty much the same. Whatever tricks you could pull off with 2C you probably could now unless it was something like IB 2C Bang's 2A.

[Tari]

236A looked and felt the same to me, as well. If you could post videos where you feel like it looks different, we may be able to comment somewhat more usefully, but from personal experience, I don't recall that 236A's flight path has changed at all.