[CSE] Carl vs. Arakune

[sinder]

Pre-Curse

Their game plan:

Curse cloud shenanigans, zoning, keep away, party bug, pressure

Strategy: Your goal in this match is to catch Arakune before you get cursed. I would say easier said than done, but to be honest it really isn't that hard to catch Arakune. His air dashes can be annoying but you have a couple of options of getting him

Volante

You can even use an option select where you hide Carl from saying volante by pressing 5A. Sneak volantes work wonders in this match

Brio

Standard fly trap since it will usually get him in a Counter hit state which means free combo or corner carry

Vivace

Use this but don't spam it as they can just summon cloud and that prevents you from jumping and it fills his curse gauge. his 2C (where he swims) can ruin vivace though so be careful and don't try to cross him up without ADA

Alle-Can

Only in C-O-N state. Alle- can is risky because 5C is not only a fatal now, but it is invulnerable on his upper body.

fuoco

Good catching tool overall, but don't use it too much or become predictable

Arakune has some great air dash tricks with J.a and J.b which can lead to an instant curse. BE CAREFUL.

In terms of pressure, they best he has is 6A which you can vivace out of. Same goes with j.a and j.b. 2.a can lead to 6.B which helps build curse, but after using 6.A you would be gone by then

When Cursed

Their game plan:

Mash into hit confirm>over 9000 combo (Carl will die instantly)

Strategy: Do not try to look slick and chase Arakune while you're cursed. Even with ADA it can be hell dealing with the curse. Usually you would just get as far away as possible from Arakune and using 8D and Brio all over the place. Cantata is difficult to rate since it can buy time but it also makes Carl Vulnerable since Arakune can teleport around it. Vivace is also unsafe because of recovery frames which will be enough time for Arakune to use C bug and start a full fledged combo.

General Overview

This match up isn't so bad when you aren't cursed, but once you are it becomes a pain since he can easily kill ADA and you at the same time

Once again. it is better to end the match without getting curse at all, so try as best as you can to avoid traps and catch him while he is throwing them at you

Vids from Video Thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynFiIuSBzQ#t=9m10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK5--v4AeCU#t=8m50s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3pjoFH5-E#t=48m55s

Edited February 24, 2012 by sinder

[Narcastic]

Doing Burio while avoiding those bugs in curse mode can easily trap them because they usually try to rush or catch you in a loop.

Do 4D on vivace when he's close enough to get CH.

3D are a good weapon for countering his Dash at the right timing.

I usually spam volante on precurse to add up pressure before I rush him from the air, IAD 5B or 5B works if he's in the air, if he's dashing on the ground avoiding volante you can do 2c from IAD.

And yes. DONT GET CURSE!.

[Akira-Shiro]

Uhh for Arakune precured is a walk in the park keep Ada stationed behind u @ all times. In a fight with squigly carl will be taking on the lead role. Arakune is a very slippery fellow to catch his dashes give him alot of evasive options making it difficult to pin him down. Now most arakunes will take a defensive stance to the situation AKA turtle there ass off we play carl & are even more agile then him getting close is easy keeping him pinned is hard dont bother trying.

Your main goal is to lure him back to Ada & let her pin him down. At that point everything becomes easy in truth i see no reason any Ara would even believe he'd win. His bug pressure has 0 effect on us, IB vivace our ONLY WHEN HE CANT ATTACK. Aras have no choice but to do pressure with moves that have alot of hitstun aka his j2a/b/c or 2c & even 3c. If these moves are blocked &bugs are property timed if u attack during his recover u can/will pay for it. Just vivace away DO NOT TRY & APPROACH HIM WHILE CURSED against a good ara its pointless u will kill urself. Instead vivace away & use volante periodically just to be a @ss whether it kills a bug or Hits Ara it helps u regardless. He cannot catch us trust me on this if he does then u were to predictable. Are has to preemptivly use his bugs THEY DO NOT HOME IN ON U. Remember that he cant catch u but u can get him, play safe & smart. An while im at it a random hitconfirm aka 5a/2a_ja or B is about 5k~7k with 100heat not 9k. So we can take about 2 combos before we die.

[Psykotik]

I honestly have to say that I disagree with your analysis of the match-up for several reasons.

You're oversimplifying the match-up. Yes, we're quicker than Arakune but that doesn't mean that we'll catch him with a push of a button (or a few flicks of the joystick). The fact that Ara can throw out curse clouds and party bugs keeps this neutral game fairly tricky. If you rush in blindly, you`ll eat a curse cloud, worse case scenario being that they get a AA 5C fatal and get full curse of that.

Luring him to Ada is not going to happen. He`s going to turtle the match away and set up curse clouds while he`s at it. If he gets a curse and he`s pressuring you (FYI, bug pressure is crazy, we`re not immune to it), Vivace is far from the safest option; if you get caught by any of his low attacks, see you in round 2. If you`re cursed and Ara somehow lets you out, I`d actually suggest that one option to is throw out attacks with Ada while dodging the bugs. If you can get a random brio and turn it into a combo, you`ll be able to run out his curse gauge by a significant amount.

He cannot catch us trust me on this if he does then u were to predictable. Are has to preemptivly use his bugs THEY DO NOT HOME IN ON U.

He can definitely catch you no matter how unpredictable you may try to be. The fact that his bugs are not homing are irrelevant when they can control so much space. Every time you block or get hit by one, that moment of hitstun or blockstun is an opportunity for him to approach you.

[Akira-Shiro]

I honestly have to say that I disagree with your analysis of the match-up for several reasons.

You're oversimplifying the match-up. Yes, we're quicker than Arakune but that doesn't mean that we'll catch him with a push of a button (or a few flicks of the joystick). The fact that Ara can throw out curse clouds and party bugs keeps this neutral game fairly tricky. If you rush in blindly, you`ll eat a curse cloud, worse case scenario being that they get a AA 5C fatal and get full curse of that.

Luring him to Ada is not going to happen. He`s going to turtle the match away and set up curse clouds while he`s at it. If he gets a curse and he`s pressuring you (FYI, bug pressure is crazy, we`re not immune to it), Vivace is far from the safest option; if you get caught by any of his low attacks, see you in round 2. If you`re cursed and Ara somehow lets you out, I`d actually suggest that one option to is throw out attacks with Ada while dodging the bugs. If you can get a random brio and turn it into a combo, you`ll be able to run out his curse gauge by a significant amount.

He can definitely catch you no matter how unpredictable you may try to be. The fact that his bugs are not homing are irrelevant when they can control so much space. Every time you block or get hit by one, that moment of hitstun or blockstun is an opportunity for him to approach you.

As i stated earlyer Vivace goes through projectiles & his bugs are projectiles, not only that i did not say RTSD blindly. An i am aware that Ara is going to turtle hard which is why i said have Ada positioned to where he teleports our of the corner (This is the purpose of her not moving to grab him during his vulnerable state(He is in CH position till he touches the ground after wall tele) & put him back in the corner. Aras forward dash has awful startup & a bit of recovery if he is forward dashing past u imma need u to step your pressure game up. Any hitconfirm should always got into a teleport combo. This matchup is alot easyer then u may believe, & i speak from experience with majority of the cast its easy to run from Ara while cursed. Just dont be predictable & no the only bug with lockdown hitstun is the C bug,, every other bug has hitstun equivalent to a 5B u can IB and GTFO easily. A bigger question is how did a bug hit u in the first place VivaceA & B both beat his bugs, and im assuming the clouds as well. It my not have a hitbox but its still a projectile.

Edit: Im not sure if u knew this but 66jump jump covers the same distance as a IAD So dashing is not our only means of transportation

In the first video like u will see that while cursed carl is utilizing vivace to run while blocking buts when in recovery & still getting away without a problem. He dies however because he is trying to attack Ara while cursed, its a bad move not only that but he is also doing alot of solo carl with Ada usually staying behind

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ynFiIuSBzQ fight starts @ 10:00

Edited May 9, 2012 by Akira-Shiro

[Psykotik]

Just because you can approach Ara doesn't mean that he'll be free. He can fight back and he can move. I never said anything for Ara's ground dashes being good for movement yet teleporting isn't necessarily the only option he has for getting out as he can jump out and j.6A/B/C his way out. If he gets out, he can then pressure Carl since Ada's too far away to pose an immediate threat.

Another thing, Vivace doesn't necessarily go through projectiles, it goes through anything that's not foot-attribute. The C-bug is a foot attribute attack so Carl will get caught by it if he tried to Vivace. Vivace will not escape the cloud either since Carl will get cursed by it anyways. And even if you do Vivace out, you're not in the clear yet; his bugs control space very well so you should to be prepared to outrun his bugs a second time (which will not be free against a good Ara).

In the first video like u will see that while cursed carl is utilizing vivace to run while blocking buts when in recovery & still getting away without a problem.

11:52 - Even though he escaped the D bug, the recovery allowed Fumo to 2C his way to Carl and throw out some bugs to lock him down. If it weren't the fact that Carl had meter for a CA, he would've had to eat Fumo's pressure. Not a good place to be in.

Perhaps I should've rephrased my point; Vivace is not free during Arakune's cursed pressure but it has its uses during neutral.

He dies however because he is trying to attack Ara while cursed, its a bad move not only that but he is also doing alot of solo carl with Ada usually staying behind

You just contradicted yourself in telling me that Ada should stay behind while chasing down Ara during the neutral game. Also, getting Ara in a (carefully done) blockstring during curse is actually a smart idea since Arakune

- has to eat your pressure (and is locked down in one spot whilst doing so)

- has to be more careful about pushing buttons to call bugs since one wrong button press could mean a CH combo from Carl

- might get hit, which means that you can run out his curse meter since he can't summon bugs while in a combo.

Kyaku didn't lose from getting Fumo in that blockstring (if anything, he did the right thing since he was able to get Fumo with the throw and start a combo...which he dropped). He lost because of that airdash he did at the end.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Psykotik

[Akira-Shiro]

Just because you can approach Ara doesn't mean that he'll be free. He can fight back and he can move. I never said anything for Ara's ground dashes being good for movement yet teleporting isn't necessarily the only option he has for getting out as he can jump out and j.6A/B/C his way out. If he gets out, he can then pressure Carl since Ada's too far away to pose an immediate threat.

Another thing, Vivace doesn't necessarily go through projectiles, it goes through anything that's not foot-attribute. The C-bug is a foot attribute attack so Carl will get caught by it if he tried to Vivace. Vivace will not escape the cloud either since Carl will get cursed by it anyways. And even if you do Vivace out, you're not in the clear yet; his bugs control space very well so you should to be prepared to outrun his bugs a second time (which will not be free against a good Ara).

11:52 - Even though he escaped the D bug, the recovery allowed Fumo to 2C his way to Carl and throw out some bugs to lock him down. If it weren't the fact that Carl had meter for a CA, he would've had to eat Fumo's pressure. Not a good place to be in.

Perhaps I should've rephrased my point; Vivace is not free during Arakune's cursed pressure but it has its uses during neutral.

You just contradicted yourself in telling me that Ada should stay behind while chasing down Ara during the neutral game. Also, getting Ara in a (carefully done) blockstring during curse is actually a smart idea since Arakune

- has to eat your pressure (and is locked down in one spot whilst doing so)

- has to be more careful about pushing buttons to call bugs since one wrong button press could mean a CH combo from Carl

- might get hit, which means that you can run out his curse meter since he can't summon bugs while in a combo.

Kyaku didn't lose from getting Fumo in that blockstring (if anything, he did the right thing since he was able to get Fumo with the throw and start a combo...which he dropped). He lost because of that airdash he did at the end.

I did not contradict myself & yes i speak with experience, verji(when he use to play) loses to my carl. Biscuts(IIRC lost to my carl), & Verard also loses to my carl & i have yet to see an Ara that is better & im telling u ara is one of our easy matchups.

Also i made my point clear when i said turtle your @ss off when you are cursed. This carl player had a few derp moments tbh He got hit with bell-bug -_- it fills up almost 60% of Ara's meter & its a OH yet this carl clearly crouched blocked it in the corner & died. An yes there will be some unfortunat situations AKA getting cursed in the corner. But its your job to not get placed into those situations & im curious wat Ara are u fight thats so gdlk id like to kno & have them ft5 me please. Cause u must be doing something wrong

An i kno u did not just say pressure Ara cause he has to "THINK TWICE" LMAO if ara has the frams to attack & mashes barrier u just got hit. Barrier is AB IIRC & 4AB will put both the A bug & B Bug directly infront of himself >.> u kno the spot were ur pressing buttons & are about to take ~7k. Ara is the Kusanagi slayer during curse u cant hurt him when he techs ur forced to block sounds SS tier to me.

But hey opinions are opinion id rather not try & pressure him but ur way is also a possibility how effective it is,,, ill let u figure out. But i usually dont lose to Ara.

Edit: Also carl is 100% projectile inv during vivace if u IB the first hit of 2D the second hit to Aras 2D misses so shall his C bug & J.D

Edited May 9, 2012 by Akira-Shiro

[Psykotik]

I did not contradict myself & yes i speak with experience, verji(when he use to play) loses to my carl. Biscuts(IIRC lost to my carl), & Verard also loses to my carl & i have yet to see an Ara that is better & im telling u ara is one of our easy matchups.

I usually don't lose against Arakunes either (and I've fought good ones before) so your point of merit is moot. You did contradict yourself earlier;

i said have Ada positioned to where he teleports our of the corner (This is the purpose of her not moving to grab him during his vulnerable state(He is in CH position till he touches the ground after wall tele)

iits a bad move not only that but he is also doing alot of solo carl with Ada usually staying behind

It's one or the other, pick one.

This carl player had a few derp moments tbh He got hit with bell-bug -_- it fills up almost 60% of Ara's meter & its a OH yet this carl clearly crouched blocked it in the corner & died.

Watch the video again. That "Carl player" (who is the arguably the best in the world atm and probably much better than you, no offfense) didn't crouch block that bell bug in that video you gave me. He got hit by Ara's j.B.

An i kno u did not just say pressure Ara cause he has to "THINK TWICE" LMAO if ara has the frams to attack & mashes barrier u just got hit. Barrier is AB IIRC & 4AB will put both the A bug & B Bug directly infront of himself >.> u kno the spot were ur pressing buttons & are about to take ~7k

If they try to barrier, you can throw them, IAD j.2C, do a careful blockstring, or whatever dodges the bugs. You don't have to be grounded when you do your blockstrings. The fact that they even tried to barrier means that they're committed to blocking; run your mixups. You play Carl, you have a multitude of options for your blockstrings. The barrier buffered bugs can be baited (alliteration ftw)

ur way is also a possibility how effective it is,,, ill let u figure out

Kyaku (the best Carl in the world) was performing blockstrings against Fumo (one of the best Aras in the world) while cursed in that video you gave me... and it worked. I should clarify this: when I said attack Ara, I didn't mean that you should go offensively during a cursed neutral game, which is suicide, I meant that if Ara happens to be open (and he can't summon bugs immediately), within 5B range and you can somehow make him block then it wouldn't hurt to do it to run out his curse. If that situation isn't immediately existent, then it's better to play it safe and just dodge the bugs (and throw out a random Brio or two).

Also, I take back part of what I said about Vivace. I still say be careful with it but you were right about it being 100% projectile invulnerable.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Psykotik

[sinder]

lol did you really just bring up biscuts?

[Akira-Shiro]

I said he was keeping Ada behind to futher prove my point, An just because u see people doing it doesnt make it the match up, SKD & LK. The difference between these two. One playes the matchup & the other plays the person, LK is very gdlk however my carl gives him trouble. SKD just as gdlk however he knows ME as a player & exploits my weaknesses. Both are extremely effective however 1 can always adapt to a matchup. This ara ur talking about is probably a very respectful player Carl can easily get a free win due to people 'trying' to block its impossible dont waste ur time.

An yes u should hit him if the opportunity presents itself however that is a situational thing & should be common knowledge 'PUNISH IF U CAN" so it was purposely excluded this is a matchup thread not a 'what if thread'.

An lastly my reason for say do not attack was because if u try to use ada to often u put urself at risk, while controlling Ada blocking isnt exactly possible all the time & when ur up against a bukake spam of insects that can hitconfirm into ~7k its not something i would advise.

An on the subject of that,, this carl (for being the best in the world) is kinda slow. Now pardon if ur offended but

@ 9:34 he stood perfectly still as Ara IAD'ed on his face

@10:00 misses a perfectly good roll reset

@ 10:10 he flops a perfectly good chance to kill Ara

@10:47 he gets hit with the highest Jb in the world

@10:50 he should have woke up into Vivace,instead he block & died to SS-Tier Ara

@11:20 he wastes a burst when he could have punished Ara

@11:35 he eats a FC from 5c & did not burst >.> & got cursed

Yet he is the best carl in the world,,,, hmm then this bar might be set kinda lol

[Psykotik]

this is a matchup thread not a 'what if thread'.

Um, "what ifs" ARE part of a matchup thread. The point of a matchup thread is to discuss situations against whatever character is being discussed.

An on the subject of that,, this carl (for being the best in the world) is kinda slow. Now pardon if ur offended but

@ 9:34 he stood perfectly still as Ara IAD'ed on his face

@10:00 misses a perfectly good roll reset

@ 10:10 he flops a perfectly good chance to kill Ara

@10:47 he gets hit with the highest Jb in the world

@10:50 he should have woke up into Vivace,instead he block & died to SS-Tier Ara

@11:20 he wastes a burst when he could have punished Ara

@11:35 he eats a FC from 5c & did not burst >.> & got cursed

Yet he is the best carl in the world,,,, hmm then this bar might be set kinda lol

9:34 - He didn't stand still; he tried to 6A Ara (you can see the opening frames of 6A)

10:00 - Drops a hitconfirm. Shit happens to everyone.

10:10 - How's this a flop? It wouldn't have been a kill no matter what he did.

10:47 - Double overhead mixup. It's almost a 50-50 when you realize the setup behind it

10:50 - If he vivaced, the A/B bugs could've chased him down

11:20 - Ara was in curse mode so there was a possibility of him covering his 2C with bugs. This happens at 11:55. Poor Kyaku probably got nervous with that burst.

11:35 - Fumo could have been baiting the burst with a j.A OS. I'll give you that one anyways since Kyaku had other points where he could've bursted.

Aside from winning a bunch of regional tournaments, Kyaku also came 2nd at SBO '09 and at Godsgarden. I wouldn't judge Kyaku as "slow" based on one match. You also have to keep in mind that this Arakune (Fumo) ain't no slouch either; he actually won SBO '09 (lol revenge match), placed in top 8 at SBO '10 and is overall one of the top Arakunes in the world.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Psykotik

[Akira-Shiro]

Um, "what ifs" ARE part of a matchup thread. The point of a matchup thread is to discuss situations against whatever character is being discussed.

9:34 - He didn't stand still; he tried to 6A Ara (you can see the opening frames of 6A)

10:00 - Drops a hitconfirm. Shit happens to everyone.

10:10 - How's this a flop? It wouldn't have been a kill no matter what he did.

10:47 - Double overhead mixup. It's almost a 50-50 when you realize the setup behind it

10:50 - If he vivaced, the A/B bugs could've chased him down

11:20 - Ara was in curse mode so there was a possibility of him covering his 2C with bugs. This happens at 11:55. Poor Kyaku probably got nervous with that burst.

11:35 - Fumo could have been baiting the burst with a j.A OS. I'll give you that one anyways since Kyaku had other points where he could've bursted.

Aside from winning a bunch of regional tournaments, Kyaku also came 2nd at SBO '09 and at Godsgarden. I wouldn't judge Kyaku as "slow" based on one match. You also have to keep in mind that this Arakune (Fumo) ain't no slouch either; he actually won SBO '09 (lol revenge match), placed in top 8 at SBO '10 and is overall one of the top Arakunes in the world.

No he did not do a AA he got no Ara CH

If he is the best he shouldnt have dropped it,, Ada was in the wrong spot 3D should have been used not 2D

If its not online drops shouldnt be happening for 'the best'

He could have killed Ara he was sitting on 100Heat which is 5c cantada fucco cantada =/ & it would have been game

Iv seen the setup & Ara was way to high for it to be legit, he was super high & he still got hit.

Lol ur joking right "A&B bug could have chased him,, wat part of 100% projectile invulnerable do u not understand, both bugs would have whiffed

An i dont care what hes done in the past we talking about now, & he not looking to good.

Edit: It looks more like a forward dash he tried to do,,, why idk but it explains the none CH

Also i never said Kyako was free,,, i said he had a free moment

Edited May 10, 2012 by Akira-Shiro

[Narcastic]

looks like Arakune vs carl match up is REALLY debate able. Me myself getting quite problem with ara player.

no matter how you debate it, ARA Vs carl can be 50-50 if we fought him on the ground, but if Ara has the upper ground and do air dash here and there, using j6a j6b or j6c, its almost impossible to hit them except you got after the active frame.

anyway, Being the best is not about winning, its about showing how you manage to be at the top with skill, I still prefer DIO as the best carl in the world ^_^