[CSE] Carl vs Valk

[Akira-Shiro]

In this matchup Ada isnt necessarily useless,,, but her 700lb @ss is not hitting this nig. Our most useful tool in this is 8D & a well placed 6D. Valk has the ability to dance on, around & through Ada. He does however have a very delicious hitbox for our combos. Making hitconfirms less strict & easyer to do. So getting oki off from random hits is your actually game plan, if u feel like u can get good dmg from any Ada hit feel free to do so. But your main priority is catching him, hes valk he only got 10K Hp... my nig is nice & squishy. If he is doing wolf pressure mash 2C TRYING TO BLOCK IT WILL KILL U. Ur best bet is mash 2C or backdash

[JG]

In this matchup Ada isnt necessarily useless,,, but her 700lb @ss is not hitting this nig. Our most useful tool in this is 8D & a well placed 6D. Valk has the ability to dance on, around & through Ada. He does however have a very delicious hitbox for our combos. Making hitconfirms less strict & easyer to do. So getting oki off from random hits is your actually game plan, if u feel like u can get good dmg from any Ada hit feel free to do so. But your main priority is catching him, hes valk he only got 10K Hp... my nig is nice & squishy. If he is doing wolf pressure mash 2C TRYING TO BLOCK IT WILL KILL U. Ur best bet is mash 2C or backdash

Let see, this match for Valk will end if you manage to get him between Carl and Nirvana. Doing the Unblockable loop against Valk is way too easy, also with one or 2 reset you can kill him. Knowing that you should always be patient and take a deep breath when he is just running away like a bitch.

His regular normal are okay, but his wolf normals will beat anything that you got. Sometimes j2.C will beat his wolf normals, but is not guarantee, so i recommend that you do what you think is best upon the situation. Also 6A can be very usefull if he jump at you, and if you think that 6A will loose, then just Vivance out.

Volante will be a good friend, and if you can, use muted Volante. That way Valk will be always worrying about something and not watch whe you go for a simple empy jump, (land), 2A.

8]D[, Brio are going to be your best tool to catch him.

Also watch out from Valk 6A, that move can beat your IAD j2.C~Allecancel. Keep in mind that some times a Valk player will mash that move. When you block 6C, dont try to mash anything, that overhead is +2 on Block. The only way to punish it, is if you manage to instant block that.

[sinder]

how do you perform muted volante?

[Narcastic]

how do you perform muted volante?

I'll do 241]D[ > 236A. or 241]D[ > IAD B or 2C, sometimes carl voice cancel the volante sounds.

[Psykotik]

how do you perform muted volante?

Do a Volante then immediately after, do anything in which Carl makes a noise. As Narc said, Vivace will work but you can also do this with a j.A (my preferred sound buffer).

[Akira-Shiro]

Let see, this match for Valk will end if you manage to get him between Carl and Nirvana. Doing the Unblockable loop against Valk is way too easy, also with one or 2 reset you can kill him. Knowing that you should always be patient and take a deep breath when he is just running away like a bitch.

His regular normal are okay, but his wolf normals will beat anything that you got. Sometimes j2.C will beat his wolf normals, but is not guarantee, so i recommend that you do what you think is best upon the situation. Also 6A can be very usefull if he jump at you, and if you think that 6A will loose, then just Vivance out.

Volante will be a good friend, and if you can, use muted Volante. That way Valk will be always worrying about something and not watch whe you go for a simple empy jump, (land), 2A.

8]D[, Brio are going to be your best tool to catch him.

Also watch out from Valk 6A, that move can beat your IAD j2.C~Allecancel. Keep in mind that some times a Valk player will mash that move. When you block 6C, dont try to mash anything, that overhead is +2 on Block. The only way to punish it, is if you manage to instant block that.

I would have to disagree with one thing JG Carl cannot use j2c allecan on valk w.5B is to godlike

[Psykotik]

I would have to disagree with one thing JG Carl cannot use j2c allecan on valk w.5B is to godlike

I hate that move so much.

In all seriousness, what if you "bait" the 5B (jump right before he presses 5B, he whiffs 5B, whiff punish with j.2C)? I've never tried it but theoretically, it could work.

[JG]

I would have to disagree with one thing JG Carl cannot use j2c allecan on valk w.5B is to godlike

Sometimes j2.C beat w.5B that is the reason why i recommend that you do what you think is best upon the situation.

How to do a Stealth, Muted or Ninja Volante:

- 421]D[, 44.

- 421]D[ + 5A

- (Air) 421]D[ + j.A

[Akira-Shiro]

I wouldn't recommend approaching from the air period. An remember IAD allecan is a netplay strat. Hima w.5B'ed a IAD allecan on. Unfortunatly u have to wait for valk to approach U. It moves @ his pace

[Psykotik]

IAD allecan is legit mixup, Akira. Granted, it's not free (unless the other person is bad) but it's a good idea to throw one out every now and then. As for Hima w5.b-ing that IAD allecan, could you link me a video of this happening? I didn't think that you could w.5b an IAD allecan in the middle of a blockstring unless Valk transforms in the middle of blockstring and then w.5b it. Which he'd have to do really fast.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Psykotik

[Narcastic]

I have only 1 problem against this character :

Block strings after the two kick command move and then transform, his attack somewhat change to mid-low and when he do dash with C, his attack change to air move, always broke my guard -.-

[sinder]

akira you have to take out nig in the opening post, it could be offensive to some people ( not joking either)

plus it makes us look bad. i know people don't play carl, but we still gotta follow the rulez

[Akira-Shiro]

I dont understand what u mean but......

Psy i saw this vid a long time ago, NeoGio00o might remember (He told me tbh) & if a person IB 5B they can mash & give us a CH 6B if u do the link. An while we are on the subject w.5B reaches very high u would need to Dj in order to make it whiff & if u remember w.5B has gdlk recovery any attempt to punish will cause a trade or u getting AA.

@Nar: if he uses the spin kick >into wolf dash Vivace, at that point carl is kinda helpless unless u KNOW he wont bait u. If he comes in 5a(whiff) 6a will beat his regular dash & both backwards dashes. If he comes in directly 5a 6a will chain for u to combo, & if he backdashes 5a will whiff but 6a will catch. But only if he aint baiting with 2 dashes

[Psykotik]

I still have my doubts but I'll take your word for it. I guess it makes sense if Valk IBs 5B... he'd have to be super sure of his read though. Either that or the Carl would have to be painfully predictable at which point he should stop throwing IAD allecans anyways. :P

EDIT: Wait, 6B? Or do you mean w.5B?

Edited May 15, 2012 by Psykotik

[Narcastic]

@akira : thanks, got it, and gonna try it this weekend on annual BB gathering ^_^.

@psy : whats w.5B? mind me, I don't really get the technical stuff :P

[sinder]

lol it means wolf (form) 5b

[Akira-Shiro]

I still have my doubts but I'll take your word for it. I guess it makes sense if Valk IBs 5B... he'd have to be super sure of his read though. Either that or the Carl would have to be painfully predictable at which point he should stop throwing IAD allecans anyways. :P

EDIT: Wait, 6B? Or do you mean w.5B?

TBH the carl wasnt doing it at all,, the one time he did valk punished it. But hey he could have been familiar with that persons play style

[JG]

TBH the carl wasnt doing it at all,, the one time he did valk punished it. But hey he could have been familiar with that persons play style

You know what? im starting to think that you are using IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel in the wrong way.

If the rival is not afraid of that move, because he think that he can escape or beat it. Then, just change the situation when you do IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel.

For example, when you put the opponent in CoN, you can do this for IAD j.2C~Allecancel:

- 2B, 5B, Volante, 7j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 5B, 2B, 5C, delay a little, 6]D[, j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 5A, 2B, 5B, 6]D[. j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 2B, 5B, 2]D[, j2.C Alle~Cancel, Vivance B. ( This is actually one of my favorites)

Is kinda hard to explain this setups with just the notation. The objective is that you manage to time the Nirvana moves in a way that when they touch the opp, you are already hitting with j2.C~Allecancel.

Also, if you just delay a little bit the moves from Nirvana and if the rival want to mach out or use a good AA, it will get in CH state thank of the Nirvana attack.

[sinder]

the last one looks like it's the most useful, but why wouldnt you use vivace A, then backdash if 2D hits?

[JG]

the last one looks like it's the most useful, but why wouldnt you use vivace A, then backdash if 2D hits?

Because now with the stronger bounce when 2]D[ hit, in that mixup is just better use Vivance B. Also it give you plenty time to hit with a 5C or j2.C~Allecancel or even just j2.C.

[Akira-Shiro]

You know what? im starting to think that you are using IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel in the wrong way.

If the rival is not afraid of that move, because he think that he can escape or beat it. Then, just change the situation when you do IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel.

For example, when you put the opponent in CoN, you can do this for IAD j.2C~Allecancel:

- 2B, 5B, Volante, 7j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 5B, 2B, 5C, delay a little, 6]D[, j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 5A, 2B, 5B, 6]D[. j2.C Alle~Cancel.

- 2B, 5B, 2]D[, j2.C Alle~Cancel, Vivance B. ( This is actually one of my favorites)

Is kinda hard to explain this setups with just the notation. The objective is that you manage to time the Nirvana moves in a way that when they touch the opp, you are already hitting with j2.C~Allecancel.

Also, if you just delay a little bit the moves from Nirvana and if the rival want to mach out or use a good AA, it will get in CH state thank of the Nirvana attack.

JG i have never got hit with w.5B nor have i even fought a really good valk (Unless Joeboy counts~ highly doubt it), I have problems with fighting no character with carl in BB on a high gameplay level. Except Ragna, Tager and Haku-men, now this is me personally my mixup if fine, i have yet to meet a person who can block my carl. But this is a matchup thread all potential threats none gimmick related should go in here, majority of these strats i dont even use myself I RTSD ALL DAY EVERYDAY.

-_-" Part of me is getting very agitated at all the accusations i receive in our carl fourms im actually very appalled & offended tbh.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Akira-Shiro

[Psykotik]

JG i have never got hit with w.5B nor have i even fought a really good valk (Unless Joeboy counts~ highly doubt it), I have problems with fighting no character with carl in BB on a high gameplay level. Except Ragna, Tager and Haku-men, now this is me personally my mixup if fine, i have yet to meet a person who can block my carl. But this is a matchup thread all potential threats none gimmick related should go in here, majority of these strats i dont even use myself I RTSD ALL DAY EVERYDAY.

-_-" Part of me is getting very agitated at all the accusations i receive in our carl fourms im actually very appalled & offended tbh.

Why are you getting mad at him? Your Carl's not perfect, however good it may be, and neither is your opinion for that matter. JG's just giving his input and tbh, I'm also a bit skeptical with some of the things you've said (you still haven't given me any concrete proof about w.5b-ing as a legit counter for an IAD allecan during a blockstring). JG's advice is right if you think about it; if your opponent's consistently countering j2.C, then maybe you should change your setups.

It's true that j.2C can be beaten by many things but then again, so can overheads and command grabs yet those are legit mixup tools. The one thing that makes IAD j.2C a good tool is that although it can be beaten:

-most counters require a degree of defensive commitment (ie. they pretty much know it's coming or it's poorly setup/very telegraphed)

-unlike overheads and most mix-up tools, Carl has so many ways to go into a cross-up j.2C to the point where even the very best defensive player will get hit at least once with the right setup since it's so hard to see when it's coming

-you can even do a "fake crossup" by doing 7, AD, j.2C allecan

The fact that you "RTSD ALL DAY EVERYDAY" or "have yet to meet a person who can block your Carl" doesn't mean that your word is law. You even admitted yourself that you haven't even fought a good Valk.

Don't be offended, this is a matchup thread, and we'll all be wrong at some point so whether or not you're actually wrong right now, don't feel offended that JG's challenging your opinion (you've done this to many, many people on this board already yet they're not offended), he's more than entitled to if he feels that he disagrees with something and I know that JG is a good enough of a player to the point where he can give intelligent input in these threads. We're all here to help each other patch the holes in our knowledge so don't feel offended that JG's (constructively) criticizing you. I sure didn't when you gave me heat in our little Arakune debate.

[Akira-Shiro]

Why are you getting mad at him? Your Carl's not perfect, however good it may be, and neither is your opinion for that matter. JG's just giving his input and tbh, I'm also a bit skeptical with some of the things you've said (you still haven't given me any concrete proof about w.5b-ing as a legit counter for an IAD allecan during a blockstring). JG's advice is right if you think about it; if your opponent's consistently countering j2.C, then maybe you should change your setups.

It's true that j.2C can be beaten by many things but then again, so can overheads and command grabs yet those are legit mixup tools. The one thing that makes IAD j.2C a good tool is that although it can be beaten:

-most counters require a degree of defensive commitment (ie. they pretty much know it's coming or it's poorly setup/very telegraphed)

-unlike overheads and most mix-up tools, Carl has so many ways to go into a cross-up j.2C to the point where even the very best defensive player will get hit at least once with the right setup since it's so hard to see when it's coming

-you can even do a "fake crossup" by doing 7, AD, j.2C allecan

The fact that you "RTSD ALL DAY EVERYDAY" or "have yet to meet a person who can block your Carl" doesn't mean that your word is law. You even admitted yourself that you haven't even fought a good Valk.

Don't be offended, this is a matchup thread, and we'll all be wrong at some point so whether or not you're actually wrong right now, don't feel offended that JG's challenging your opinion (you've done this to many, many people on this board already yet they're not offended), he's more than entitled to if he feels that he disagrees with something and I know that JG is a good enough of a player to the point where he can give intelligent input in these threads. We're all here to help each other patch the holes in our knowledge so don't feel offended that JG's (constructively) criticizing you. I sure didn't when you gave me heat in our little Arakune debate.

I read the 1st 2 paragraphs im kinda in a hurry,, but if u look at his post it says "You/Your" meaning it is directed to me & i am not mad i said appalled & offended. His statement, regardless of how helpful/unhelpful was directed to 'Me' clearly in his mind he thinks i have a problem getting baited while trying to preform mixup. That is not the case

[JG]

Is not that im challenging his opinion, but what im trying to say is: maybe he isn't using IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel in a way that can scare the opponent or he is using it the wrong way.

In my case, i don´t agree with the opinion that IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel is a netplay tactic. Frankly even Japaneses top Carl player use it often, also they tend to use it with similar setup that i described before.

Also, the setups that i put here, they aren't gimmick. Maybe the problem is that you see it like gimmick, but frankly they improve a lot the effectiveness of our IAD j2.C Alle~Cancel.

[Psykotik]

I read the 1st 2 paragraphs im kinda in a hurry,, but if u look at his post it says "You/Your" meaning it is directed to me & i am not mad i said appalled & offended.

Not to be a lingual nazi but...

-_-" Part of me is getting very agitated at all the accusations i receive in our carl fourms im actually very appalled & offended tbh.

Agitated is pretty much synonymous with being mad so there you go.

As for JG's thinking that you have trouble being baited, it's a reasonable assumption considering the fact that you see IAD j.2C as a netplay strat, even if he is mistaken.

But enough of this silly banter, let's actually talk about the matchup now...

... fuck w.5B.