[+R] Sol Badguy Gameplay Discussion

[Kaizen]

Just wait until there's training mode. Nobody wants to touch DI because even with its buffs, it's still a terrible move, but once people take some time to figure out, it might see usage as extended kill combos (imagine if combos used during DI sealed burst, like BBCP overdrive). Hell, watching Roi go into DI and go for DUST instead of Sol's AMAZING NEW DI OVERHEAD made me

My favorite changes thus far, though:

-6P hitstun buff on both ground and air hit. Better corner throw and airthrow combo options, no more stupid "6P against jump out, get nothing" bs.

-c.S even on block. Better for frame traps and blockstrings.

-FB sidewinder. SW loop out of random jump ins, Air to airs (jK) or j.Ds for only 25%.

-Fafnir throw invlun. until active. No more getting thrown during throw baits.

-BB clean hit. Ridiculous damage double GF BB to SW loop.

-HS Fafnir working off of CH f.S, 2H, and 5H. Actual combo confirmation rather than just poke and hope for counter hit, otherwise nothing.

-DUSTLOOP

[VR-Raiden]

I love the new 6p too. I keep hitting air 6p now and being like, wow can't wait til I can combo off that! The other changes are great too.

Ive been thinking, theres a lot of moves you could always punish on block with a f.S, now with the fafnir cancels you can potentially make those punishes hurt a lot more.

Edited December 20, 2012 by VR-Raiden

[andresakatito]

First, I think we should establish that proration is different than scaling, because a lot of people seem to confuse the two. Anyway...

Proration is a damage reduction that is attached to a move and applies to the rest of the combo, that activates when the move is used to start a combo. This means that AC j.S, with its 90% prorate, causes all moves following to only deal 90% their general damage. This means that if we simply did j.S j.D, ignoring the guard bar and assuming we're hitting a character with a 1.00 defense modifier, j.D would only do 36 damage as opposed to its usual 40. If scaling were not present in GG, then in AC+R, the j.D following the j.S would do a full 40 damage because the prorate is gone. Prorates are usually attached to lows, quick moves, moves with extreme damage outputs, or general ease of use.

Scaling is, in Guilty Gear, how much guard bar a move takes away on hit. Since a reduction in the guard bar below neutral/0 causes all moves' damage to drop, this is why combos start to go down to damage of 1 per hit once you get past a certain point. It's why, even if you do a basic string like c.S 2S 2D BR, the Bandit Revolver does far less damage than it would by itself. Since this scaling only goes into effect when the guard bar goes below neutral, putting an opponent in block pressure and then opening them up deals more damage if they didn't faultless. The guard bar still needs to drop down to the point where scaling will activate.

Both of these can apply at the same time, and scaling will always apply once the guard bar drops past 0 (since it ranges from 128 to -128). That's why if you do j.S j.D, the j.D does around 32 damage, but j.K j.D makes the j.D do 36 damage instead. Both j.K and j.S have the same scaling (GB -7), but j.S has the prorate. Now that it's gone, j.S is pretty much the superior air-to-ground in every aspect, and j.K goes back to being generally useless.

One more thing to consider is forced proration, which is kind of like a combination of both prorates and scaling. Forced prorates go into effect regardless of where a move with a forced prorate is used. It's why Sidewinder, with its 70% forced prorate, is a terrible move to start a combo with, but also why SW doesn't do 100% every time you loop it. Even though SW does increasing damage with every clean hit, the force prorate keeps it from getting out of hand. To put it in perspective, SW loop without scaling or proration would make the 4th Sidewinder in a loop deal 110 damage. Think about that for a second.

That's why I think it's so awesome that BB doesn't have a forced prorate. You're basically getting the last hit of Grand Viper into your combo without any of the previous hits scaling as hard, and for much higher damage. Every other move with a clean hit on it has a prorate too: Sidewinder and Fafnir are 70% forced, and Grand Viper has an 80% prorate, plus all the scaling from the first hits. Bringer also does 50 base damage, so if you start without that 66% prorate being forced, you're potentially shoving around 60-90 something damage in plus storing two clean hits before you're even near a forced prorate.

Example: corner c.S 6P GF FRC BB|> GF FRC BB |> 2H j.D SW loop is going to .

So, short summary:

-Moves with prorates reduce the damage of all following hits in a combo down to that level. e.g. a 60% prorate makes all moves in the combo do 60% normal damage

-Scaling reduces the damage in all combos, along with reducing hitstun and increasing gravity, being GG's main infinite prevention system.

-Forced prorates reduce following damage, regardless of where in the combo a move was used.

-Both scaling and prorates go into effect at the same time.

-Bandit Bringer has hilarious potential.

-Riot Stomp should clean hit and then maybe it wouldn't be a total piece of shit.

Thank you so much dude! This cleared everything up for me.

All these buffs get me all excited!

Didn't know the j.K didn't have the prorate. I should really read all the fine print.

Thanks again!

So 6P has more hit stun? all we need now is that gattle from 2K and we'll be back to reload Sol. lol

[Kaizen]

Yeah 6P having more hitstun is a godsend. That extra 2 frames on grounded hit, plus extending that to an air hit (as opposed to just acting like a level 3, which only has 14f of hitstun) seriously opens up a lot of combo options.

As awesome as 2K6P was in #R and Slash, I honestly kind of like having 2K 6P work as a frame trap, since you're going from a low to something which is going to make anybody who tries to poke out eat something fierce. Midscreen CH 6P on Millia to 2S (whiff cancel) dash c.S2H j.S SW |> dash 2H j.S SW |> 2H tk8.SW |> 2H BR does over 270 damage.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Who are some of the top players with Sol in AC and AC+R? Back in the day I used to watch Isa, but he dropped Sol for Eddie, and I haven't seen P.C play this game in R.

Thanks.

[axel]

Who are some of the top players with Sol in AC and AC+R? Back in the day I used to watch Isa, but he dropped Sol for Eddie, and I haven't seen P.C play this game in R.

Thanks.

Best is hands down 012, followed by in no particular order Kishitaka, Roi, Koro-chan and NOB.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Thanks for the info, I'll check them out. Funny, I've only seen Roi, at least when it came to R gameplay.

[axel]

Thanks for the info, I'll check them out. Funny, I've only seen Roi, at least when it came to R gameplay.

This video is more than enough to show you that 012 is THE Sol in AC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzmvyC2ltTQ

[Final Ultima]

Changes to Sol in the ver1.10 location test.

Fafnir: Input window for Tyrant Rave follow-up has been lengthened.

FB Tyrant Rave: Damage bonus from Clean Hits has been increased.

That's as specific as it gets right now though.

[Kaizen]

Dragon Install used to gain a duration increase once you dropped below half (210 health). Is there any word on whether that has changed, since everybody's health has been bumped up to 460?

Seems like it might be significant, seeing as how more and more Sol players are starting to experiment with it seriously.

Furthermore, is the duration gain static based on how much health you had when you used the move, or does it change based on taking damage mid-DI? In other words, the formula for DI duration is 360 frames + (210 - Current HP if health is < 210)frames. If I use DI at exactly 210 health, and then proceeded to take 50 points of damage during DI, would the duration increase to 410 frames, or remain at 360? It seems silly and would be entirely impractical to rely on if the latter were the case, but hey, you never know.

[Kaizen]

Two more things I noticed.

The frame data lists FB Sidewinder as an overhead, though I remember the shitty google translation of the Livedoor wiki stated something along the lines of it not being an overhead. Either that, or it was something relating to Sidewinder not being able to hit crouching opponents anyway. It'd be nice if some Sol players actually went out of their way to test something like that (you know, kinda testing something that Sol might need to actually land a hit).

Second, the gatling table says that f.S cancels into 6H? I could have sworn it was c.S only, but f.S actually sounds better. Open with f.S 6H Fafnir. Good stuff.

[VR-Raiden]

Second, the gatling table says that f.S cancels into 6H? I could have sworn it was c.S only, but f.S actually sounds better. Open with f.S 6H Fafnir. Good stuff.

Oh yeah I think I recall seeing that in an early vid, it combo'd on CH f.S. I don't know if it would combo on normal hit but it sounds nice either way.

Also that reminded me I've seen people do f.S after a midscreen airthrow before, I wonder if you can do airthrow > f.S > FB fafnir now for combos? I know the f.S is probably height specific, and maybe character specific. But I feel like when I've seen it, it was at a height where just doing airthrow > FB fafnir wouldn't have worked (which only works from realllly low airthrow if I recall).

[Kaizen]

Found something interesting. Since you can clean hit a Fafnir out of an airthrow against lightweights, and since you can cancel into Fafnir now, I tried doing Airthrow > f.S (RC) Fafnir. Sure enough, it clean hits against a bunch of characters. However, a lot of them have height restrictions and the combo is kind of hard, so you might not care. But if you want to tag on an extra 100+ damage out of an airthrow that's not right in the corner, then you'd better practice up! (Sure, this won't work midscreen in +R, but in AC it's all fair game regardless of position).

Airthrow, Fafnir (Burst throw height):

May, Baiken, Anji, Jam, Bridget.

Airthrow, Fafnir (Right off the ground):

Chipp, Dizzy, I-no, Zappa...May, Baiken, Anji, Jam, Bridget.

Leads to damage ranging from ~160-210.

Airthrow, f.S (RC in AC) FB Fafnir (Sol's maximum single-jump-height throw):

Sol, Testament, Robo, Order-Sol.

Airthrow, f.S (RC in AC) FB Fafnir (Burst Throw height):

Axl, Slayer...Sol, Testament, Robo, Order-Sol.

Airthrow, f.S (RC in AC) FB Fafnir (Right off the ground):

Johnny, Venom, Eddie, ABA, Ky...Axl, Slayer...Sol, Testament, Robo, Order-Sol.

Leads to damage ranging from ~150-170.

Impossible (from my results):

Pot, Millia, Justice.

Pot and Justice's clean hitboxes are too high; it'll OTG before you're at the proper height to do it.

Millia falls too far away for any of these setups to work.

For the f.S [RC] Fafnir, you'll want to have the opponent as close to the ground as possible, or have an extremely minor delay between the f.S and Fafnir.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Kaizen
Forgot damage values.

[Arvoyea]

Has there been any experimentation with players on the Dustloop so far? Like is it possible to it after a clean hit Grand Viper or Fafnir?

[Kaizen]

Pretty sure I've seen a couple players go for at least one rep after Grand Viper or Fafnir (with 1 rep = 2 j.Ds in a single jump), into j.D Sidewinder. Doesn't look like D-Loop is nearly as dominating as it used to be due to the health increase and j.D's damage nerf, but like it still has its place pre-SW loop.

[Surf]

Pretty interested in this character. Who are some notable Sol players

TOP 10 SOL PLAYERS THREAD

Sigh. Im sorry

Edited March 17, 2013 by Surf

[VR-Raiden]

So 2 things I want to try involving FB SW.

Dash jump over opponent, airbackdash jD FB SW. I hit people with this going into air BR RC/FRC sometimes, but I suspect with FB SW you'll be able to hit the jD much farther and it will be less character specific.

Instant njS jD FB SW. As a throw attempt punish I could see this working and leading to good damage.

and maybe jS fuzzy jS FB SW? I kind of doubt thd FB SW would hit though based on what people have been saying.

[Orrax]

I did some testing on these, albeit not in +R (SW in Accent Core and FB SW have the same start up and hit box, right?). Air backdash j.D SW worked on Pot, but only when he was standing. The SW just doesn't have quite enough time to come out otherwise. It would also be hard to hit confirm, so you'd be burning 25% on a guess. nj.S SW worked on everyone I tested it on, so long as they were standing, so I think that could work as a throw punish. Not quite sure if that's exactly what you were referring to, though (the j.D definitely does not leave time for SW to come out, and if you instantly nj.S, the j.D whiffs).

Also, it looks like a lot of the places iad sj.PH is used can be replaced with j.K FB SW. So long as the j.K connects, I think the SW should as well (it is possible to be a little too far/too low, though, although if they're closer j.S may connect). It seems like this should lead to some solid damage, but I never really see Sol players using it. Oh, and iad j.P FB SW should work too.

I also think WT iad j.P FB SW should be useful as an unburstable combo starter, because of all the characters WT iad j.P CLSW doesn't quite work on, but I never see anyone use that either.

[VR-Raiden]

ok wasn't sure if FB SW was faster or not. I tried them myself, on the backairdash over jD SW, I get it to work like I thought it would on most the cast (everyone but shorter people like Kliff, Zappa, Faust, May, Millia, Baiken, Bridget) but yeah they have to be standing (or tall enough) or jD doesn't hit early enough for SW to come out in time. No it's not easy to hitconfirm either, neither is going to BR, it's more of a gimmick/trick than a solid mix-up.

on the nj.S thing I forgot you can't delay cancel much at all after j.S hits, I was thinking CH instant nj.S delay j.D would work but nah. It's a risky bait option anyway since if they crouch or have a 4H/6H that lowers them you whiffed a j.S or get hit for it. Scratch that idea.

[VR-Raiden]

So...any Sol players got a vita?

I keep hitting air hit 6P near corner and wishing I was playing +R...

Apparently ill have access to a vita for a bit starting this weekend so I can try stuff for people

Edited April 24, 2013 by VR-Raiden

[Kaizen]

I also have a friend who got it on his Vita. Lemme know if there's anything you'd like me to test (as long as it doesn't involve sj.IAD j.P/K BR. I NEVER land that shit).

[VR-Raiden]

So this is probably good to know in these match-ups, Fafnir > Tyrant Rave causes knockdown on Potemkin and Robo-Ky. Everyone else can tech before they hit the ground.

[Kaizen]

So this is probably good to know in these match-ups, Fafnir > Tyrant Rave causes knockdown on Potemkin and Robo-Ky. Everyone else can tech before they hit the ground.

YES. Pot can eat it for having the ability to combo Sol out of PBuster midscreen.

I don't know why I don't see any Sol players ending SW loops in Fafnir > Tyrant Rave. Even if it doesn't knock down except on those two, the damage buff it gets from Clean Hits should have been more than enough to kill in several situations I saw players going for j.P x Whatever trying to score a kill.

[VR-Raiden]

YES. Pot can eat it for having the ability to combo Sol out of PBuster midscreen.

I don't know why I don't see any Sol players ending SW loops in Fafnir > Tyrant Rave. Even if it doesn't knock down except on those two, the damage buff it gets from Clean Hits should have been more than enough to kill in several situations I saw players going for j.P x Whatever trying to score a kill.

Yeah it's nice you can run up and get GF FRC or safejump oki from pretty much anywhere.

I've been trying to find where in combos you can get the Tyrant Rave end, it's kinda weird since you move forward a lot with the Fafnir, so the positioning after the SW has to be right. I got it using jS SW loops in corner though, it does do a lot of extra damage and I could see it being good for the kill damage. It doesn't knock down Pot or Robo though after you've done a few SW, it seems to only do that off ground hit.

wow this is a cool example vs Pot (yay)

midscreen WT > [fjD > SW]x3 > fjS > SW > FB Fafnir(whiff) > Tyrant Rave = 194 dmg, a good chunk more than doing sjPPPPPPPP etc

Edited April 28, 2013 by VR-Raiden

[Kaizen]

Holy shit 194 on Pot out of WILD THROW? Yes please.

I'd wish that ending combos with normal Fafnir > Tyrant Rave instead of FB Fafnir worked, but the Tyrant Rave followup is 8 frames slower on the normal Fafnir.