[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

Umai, you honestly have some commendable execution. First the 5D > j.A route, and now this? Amazing.

Anyhow, if you put the second garu, it definitely does make the combo drop. Memento Mori ender does 5828, and 214b x2 does like 3.4k. I'm gonna try to get this on other characters, though I've only hit it once on Yosuke.

Edit: Well, I only did it that one time, lol. I have no idea how I got it to work. Are you doing a regular jump? And if so, how? In the video, the jump is delayed as well.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Elochai

[UmaiCakes]

yeah neutral jump, I think forward jump makes D.Garu [2] go too far under them and the upper tip of the hitbox won't pop them up like you want

I don't think the jump is much delayed, I just hit 8 and try to input D.Garu asap. Doing it close to the ground is what makes it work. I wonder if you could TK d.Garu off AOA~C...though when I tried it Liz just jumps and does nothing. I feel like there should be a timing that would make it work though

And lol, this combo is way harder than j.BAC, might even too be too hard to be practical

[Elochai]

Yeah, I may consider not learning this combo. I just wish we had something from AOA~C other than j.A x 2 > j.B > j.C. I gotta try some stuff out.

[Elochai]

I was looking at some stuff in training mode, and I saw that 2C can kind of work like a.bufu, except in the corner. Midscreen, we may opt for maragi ender > 5A > a.bufu reset, but in the corner, we can do Sb.Zio ender > 5A > 2C. On backwards, neutral, and upwards air tech, I've gotten this to work, but not on forward air tech; the CPU ends up IBing. Maybe we could do a FC grab (air grab, even?) here, since the grab is only 5 frames, and I doubt someone would expect it after falling from a blocked 2C.

I'm aware that on air tech, some characters have options, and maybe they'll be able to beat this. However, I feel this is the same (or similar to) the b.bufu > 2C midscreen reset.

Edit: If they don't tech, and the 2C becomes a yellow beat, you can always get a free maragi oki.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Elochai

[TheArm05]

I've been ending my combos with 2C -> C.Agi for a while, even when I know the 2C will yellow beat. It is really good because nobody air techs against Liz (If they do just use a j.D/2B reset and that will end real fast). Also even if they do call it out and air tech it just makes the 2C hit meaty which if timed right can make 2C + frames iirc.

Honestly corner C.Agi ender is one of the few legitimate oki options availible to Liz that everybody has to respect so it is always a safe and good ender to your combo.

I need to start playing this game again so I don't suck at FR >.<

[Elochai]

Just gonna ask in case anyone knows, but why does Memento Mori's minimum damage drop from 2625 to 1250 if you do OMB > 214AB? For reference, the combo I did was garu loop > OMB > 214AB > AOA > Mori.

[UmaiCakes]

Use 2C in the combo? Also I'm not sure if the 2C's damage bonus for Memento Mori has a time limit or something

Honestly corner C.Agi ender is one of the few legitimate oki options availible to Liz that everybody has to respect so it is always a safe and good ender to your combo.

C.Agi can be poked away, I'm pretty sure characters with a fast 5A can wakeup and hit Thanatos before Agi comes out.

I think ending corner combos with 2C Zio [something] is already pretty optimal, paralysis and fear means that to avoid the 5D afterwards they have to short hop, which also gives you a free punish (5B). Then its just a DP guessing games, and not everyone's DP hits Liz from that distance anyways. Actually you could also late tech to avoid meaty 5D... just like late tech to get out out of S.Lab's gulp setup, but no one seems to do it vs Liz 5D

Edited January 19, 2013 by UmaiCakes

[Elochai]

2C doesn't have a time limit, the bonus is applied to Thanatos' s next physical atrack. I can't believe I forgot something so basic. The combo omitted 2C as I was going for midscreen MM ender.

I don't think Liz has legit oki when all you have to do is delay tech, or mash a button fast enough.

[stinkymonz]

Just gonna ask in case anyone knows, but why does Memento Mori's minimum damage drop from 2625 to 1250 if you do OMB > 214AB? For reference, the combo I did was garu loop > OMB > 214AB > AOA > Mori.

Sounds like SB Bufu uses the 2C damage buff; they were still feared when you did Mori?

[Elochai]

SB Bufu wouldn't use the damage bonus. 2C was omitted from the combo tbh, I just did 3 garus > OMB. If you recall, doing stuff > 2C > b.bufu > mori will still net you the 2625 min. I just totally forgot about 2C's damage buff, and now I'm here looking quite stupid, lol.

[Runyst]

where did you find out about the 2c damage buff o-o

first time hearing about it here heh. There's so much to learn in this game. Can't believe people still write it off as the auto combo/square square square game

[Kiba]

This was found out a while back.

The information is on the wiki.

[Elochai]

236C confirmed for useless, lol. Besides hitting corner combos after 5C > 214A crouch confirm, I have no idea for what its use is. Even at that, I think the 5C > 236A OMC is a way better combo route in the corner; if you're going to spend 50 meter, you may as well get 4K with an easy combo.

Edit: LOL, well, forget that. You can pickup 5C > 214A with 236D meterless. The "optimal" crouch confirm off 5C is probably:

5C > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > j.236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > (214A > j.C) or 2C > 236A.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Elochai

[UmaiCakes]

5C > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > j.236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > (214A > j.C) or 2C > 236A.

j.B > j.C > j.236D 0_o

Also how much does that do?

I know in corner crouch confirms you can also do something like

A.Bufu 5C 2C etc

This avoids IAD since IAD combos when you're in the corner puts you out of the corner...however you can also neutral jump j.B instead of IAD but the timing is harder

[Elochai]

I'll be able to play in like two hours, and then I'll give you exact numbers. IIRC, it's a little over 3k.

I didn't know you could do 214A > 5C, I thought that was too slow. I got used to doing neutral jump j.B > j.236D after grinding it out last night lol. I used to try 5B after 214A in the corner, the cards would hit the opponent on return.

[Elochai]

Okay, so crouch confirm 5C > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > j.236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > j.C does 3743. Alternatively, 5C > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > j.236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 236A does 3803. I suppose the 2C combo is better if you want the fear, while the j.C variant gives HKD.

[UmaiCakes]

5C > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > j.236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 214A > j.C does 4k. It only works on characters that you can DGaru [2], the others you can't get 2A after j.DGaru

Starting with 5B 5C it does 3.8k ... so about 200~ish damage more than if you omit the j.DGaru\

Neutral jump j.B DGaru only works on FC 5C btw, and if you do get FC 5C you can just do 2C

Edited January 24, 2013 by UmaiCakes

[Elochai]

Yeah, you're right. 5C into 2C or OMB on FC is way better. I suppose you can go for the j.236D there if you wanna style (and drop the combo just because). Have you tried doing other variations of garu in the 5C midscreen combo? I'm about to try that.

edit: just got it to work on Yu, trying to replicate my results so I can record them lol.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Elochai

[UmaiCakes]

Off 2A 5B 5C A.Bufu it yellow beats

Do tell if you can get j.DGaru [9~3] to work on other characters

[Elochai]

I don't think you can [9~3]; garu feels really stiff after the j.C. Still trying to redo it though.

Edit: What a bevy of oddity. I have a hard time doing the combo on Yosuke, and I only got the 2A link once in like five tries. I'm super certain it works on you, maybe the timing is just super strict or something. I'll try again later because I actually wanna netplay now. Maybe there's something here we're not seeing. Did you try every character, Umai?

Edited January 24, 2013 by Elochai

[Elochai]

In regards to the combo we were working on the other day, to garu other characters, you can do

5C (2) > 214A > IAD j.B > j.C > 2A > 5B > 2AB > 236D [x] > 2A > 5B > 5C > j.C

Only does 3.9k, but this way, you can garu err'body.

Edit: So, the use of C.Garu is 5AA AA confirm. D.Garu isn't fast enough, but C is. Basic combo is

5AA > j.A > j.B > j.236C [2] OMC > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > 214B > j.C

Edit2: On FC, this route becomes obsolete (lol). You're better off doing

5AA > j.A > j.B > j.236D [2] > (2B > j.B > j.236D [2]) x2 > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > 214B > j.C

Poor 236C.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Elochai

[TheArm05]

Hey man 236C has its use. Namely when you are sub 25 meter, have a burst when your opponent doesn't, and feel like (need) 5k off of a random grounded confirm.

5B > 2AB > 236C > OMB > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 2AB > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B > 214B > j.C

I opened a round in a Liz mirror match this way today. Pretty funny to take 80% life off the first hit in the round.

[Elochai]

I've never really thought of doing 236C > OMB sub 25 meter. If I was doing a meterless combo, I'd usually go for 5AAA > 236D > 2A > stuff. The autocombo builds a ton of meter (20 meter, I think?) and for no resources at all, it corner carries.

Being Liz, I think having the burst is a good thing as it can be vital for saving your life in risky situations. That combo you posted should be kept in mind though.

[godofwar7]

Hmm, I want a second opinion on a burst safe followup to the wallbounce of thanatos's command grab, that ive been practicing.

I love using 5B, but practically everyone know to burst that and they have such a long window opportunity to do it.

At first I was just using 5C(2) after the wallbounce to bait bursts, but in training mode i found that its actually a viable followup to the wallbounce.

So far I've been only been able to do it consistently from the middle of the screen(when training mode just starts up and everyone stays in the same position).

CH/FC 5D Backdash ~ short slow walk ~ 5C(2)

a) if they don't burst just continue with the normal 2C and followup

b) if they do burst, you are safe from it and followup with FC combo.

Can someone check if this is viable and actually a good burst bait? I've only practiced on Yu and Yosuke.

P.S. It was fun to play against you at TSB, Umai.

[Elochai]

How does one combo 5D FC > 5C (2)? It yellow beats for me.