Veteru Posted October 1, 2012 Posted October 1, 2012 Explanation of proration System & Same Move Prorate The simplest way to explain it is that Persona 4 Arena uses a movecount based proration system (Similar to SF4 series). After the first hit (100% damage), each move will add 4% proration to your combo (96%, 92%, 88%, etc.) until 52%, at which point each move adds 2% proration to your combo (52%, 50%, 48%, etc.) until 0%. Some moves will count as multiple "moves" worth of proration, and similar to BlazBlue, starting a combo with a move can impose additional proration beyond what would occur if the move was used midcombo. Please note that every character also has a "Character Rate" modifier, similar to BlazBlue. They are as follows: Akihiko: 75% Mitsuru: 70% Yukiko: 70% Yosuke: 70% Elizabeth: 65% Aigis: 65% Teddie: 65% Narukami: 60% Labrys: 60% Naoto: 60% Chie: 60% Kanji: 60% Shadow Labrys: 50% For those unfamiliar with this sytem from BlazBlue, your proration is modified by the character rate at the start of any combo. If Narukami starts a combo with 5C (counts as "1 move" worth of proration), the next hit will deal 60%(character rate) of 96%(proration value for move #2 in a combo), or 57.6%. Explanation of Same Move Prorate: Virtually every move has some kind of SMP on it, but it's important to realize the SMP penalty most moves have is actually quite low. I personally refer to them as "Blazblue SMP" and "Universal SMP". Moves with "BlazBlue SMP" have severe penalties attached for repeating them (Such as Narukami 214B). If you use it a second time in your combo, it will count as 9 moves worth of proration (an extra 36% proration to your combo) instead of the default value (3 moves worth of proration, 12%). Meanwhile, for "Universal SMP", virtually all other moves have this... but there is a catch. The first time you repeat a move in your combo, you will not receive any additional proration for it. Essentially you get one "freebie", and after that if you repeat a move in your combo you will gain 1 additional move worth of proration. It's a really small hit to your combo's damage, which is why a lot of characters can get away with certain loop combos (like Narukami's jC j214B loops). For those wondering, "One More Burst" counts as "-2 hits". In the event you go below "0 hits", it will not cause your moves to deal extra damage, but you'll be given a buffer before proration begins to affect your combo. On a side note, even "One More Burst" has Universal SMP. Here is a list of Narukami's proration values: Midcombo Prorate -2x: OMB 0x: 5DD (Actually just counts as the same move as 5D) 1x: 2A 5B 2B 5C 5AA, 2AB, 236C, 236CD, 214A, 214AB, j214A, j214B, j214AB, 214D, 214CD, 5BD, jA, j2A, jB, jBB, jBD, Guard Cancel Attack 2x: 5A, 5D, jC, jD, 214214C/D(Actually 1x*2) 3x: 214B, 236D, 5x: 214C 6x: 2C, 5AAA 7x: jCD(Assumption based on prorate) 10x: 5AB, 5CD, 236236C/D, j236236C/D Initial Prorate (Additive with midcombo prorate value): 0x: 5AA, 5AAA, 5C, 2C, 5AB, 5CD, jCD(Assumed), 236C, 236CD, 236D, 214214C/D, OMB 1x: 2x: 5A, 2B, jA, j2A, jB, jBB, 2AB, 214C, 3x: 5D/5DD, 5B, jC, jD, 214A/AB, j214A/B/AB, 4x: Ziodynes 5x: 2A, 214B, 214D, 214CD, 8x: 5BD, jBD, 10x: Guard Cancel Attack Initial Prorate (Including the midcombo prorate value): -2x: OMB 1x: 5AA, 5C, 236C, 236CD, 214214C/D 3x: 2B, jA, j2A, jB, jBB, 2AB, 236D 4x: 5A, 5B, 214A, 214AB, j214A/B/AB, 5x: 5D, 5DD, jC, jD, 6x: 5AAA, 2A, 2C, 214D, 214CD, 7x: jCD, 214C, 8x: 214B 9x: 5BD, jBD 10x: 5AB, 5CD, 11x: Guard Cancel Attack 14x: Ziodynes Scaling of untechable time in combos: Prior to 52% proration, untechable time is not reduced. 52% = -2F untechable time 44% = -3F untechable time 40% = -4F untechable time 38% = -5F untechable time 36% = -6F untechable time 34% = -7F untechable time 32% = -8F untechable time 30% = -10F untechable time 28% = -12F untechable time 26% = -14F untechable time 24% = -16F untechable time 22% = -18F untechable time 20% = -20F untechable time 18% = -22F untechable time 16% = -24F untechable time 14% = -26F untechable time 12% = -28F untechable time 10% = -30F untechable time 8% through 0% = Everything is immediately techable (*Exception for throws, etc. which cannot have their untechable time reduced) Moves cannot have their untechable time reduced below 1F. At any point if a move should have 0F untechable time, it is untechable for 1 frame. Also note: Hitstop is not reduced by the scaling of untechable time, so there may be other ways to perform combos even after you reach the maximum reduction (i.e. using the hitstop from projectiles which only gets applied to the opponent and not the attacker, etc.). The Superflash As some older players may have noticed, it is somewhat difficult to perform countersupers in this game compared to Guilty Gear etc. (obviously more difficult than BlazBlue where you don't have to time it properly). The reason for this is: Supers have wildly different lengths for their superflash... so even if you learn the timing to countersuper someone, that timing is only useful vs. that specific super. Sometimes even the alternate versions of the same super have a different length of superflash (Narukami Ziodyne's, etc.). All I can say is learn the timing against each super. See the chart below for more details. Restricted Action during some landing recovery (Special State): Various moves that have landing recovery place you into a special state where you can perform some actions (attacking, blocking) but not necessarily others (certain movement, like walking or jumping). It varies, and not all moves have this, but I'll try to include some notes about it after Narukami's Frame Data. Please understand that I measure for the earliest point you can attack, as this is most relevant for general gameplay purposes. Narukami Frame Data including untechable time, Persona appearance, superflash info etc. Special State Notes: For presentation purposes, the notes about restricted action during landing recovery (Special State) are not listed on the table above. Max Burst (Gold Burst), Reversal (Defensive) and One More Burst: Movement restricted for 3f JC: Movement restricted frame 1~3 after landing. JD: Movement restricted frame 9~15 after landing. J2A: Movement restricted for frame 9~15 of landing recovery J236236C: Movemenet restricted frame 10~16 of landing recovery J236236D: Movement restricted frame 10~16 of landing recovery Smalljump: Movement restricted from frame 9~16 of landing recovery. Additional Notes: Jump is airborn on frame 4, can't perform a move until frame 6 (Frame 1-5 uncancellable) Smalljump is airborn on frame 4, can perform a move on frame 18 (Frame 1-17 uncancellable), last airborn frame is 34F, 9f* landing recovery (*cannot walk for 16f after landing, jump and attack are OK) Repeat Input: 3 Additional Frames beyond the initial button press (so frame 1-4) Ground Tech: 33f window of non action, can walk, run forward, or attack on frame 34, cannot initiate jump until frame 35. Air Unblockable Protection: For 17f after your air blockstun ends, you are allowed to block "Air Unblockable" moves. Base chip damage: 15% (Some moves may have additional multipliers or penalties, have not tested everything). Narukami Air Turn 4f uncancellable window, can perform actions 5th frame Narukami forward Air Dash can be cancelled on frame 6 (5f uncancellable startup) Narukami Air Backdash can be cancelled on frame 14 (13f uncancellable startup) Fatal Counter is +5 untechable time Persona IRC channel: On a whim, I decided to open a channel for P4A on IRC. Feel free to come visit with any questions or if you just want to discuss the game with me. #Persona on EFnet Credits & Special Thanks: JIYUNA & TheBrett Thanks guys for inspiring and encouraging me. Sadly Narukami's gameplay is pretty simple, so most of this research won't help Narukami players much. Keep leading the way for future Narukami players.
Veteru Posted October 1, 2012 Author Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) Some things I forgot to mention: There are some rare moves which count as seperate "hits" for purposes of proration, such as Narukami's Cross Slash (each hit has 1x prorate, which get applied seperately). For situations like this, these hits usually count as seperate moves for the purpose of filling up the 10 move SMP list. I didn't include an explanation on how combos like Naoto's SMP loop work because it's already been done before and is not my personal research. Using Narukami's Cross Slash as an example, you would only need to perform 8 other unique moves in order to reach the SMP limit and then become immune to SMP for the rest of your combo. Also, regarding the scaling of hitstun: It gets scaled as a different (slower) rate than the scaling of untechable time. I had a list, but somehow lost or destroyed it in my notes. I'll research it once again and post an update once I get the chance. Narukami's J2A (Divekick) is unique and functions differently from divekicks in most other games. It does not have a minimum height requirement, but they gave it a special property to keep rising j2A from being overpowered. On frame 4, regardless of your jump momentum you will start to rise up in the air, all the way to frame 15. Frame 16 is the first active frame and the first frame where you actually begin diving downward. As a result, a rising j2A is not the lowest height that it is possible to perform the move (+moves performed at the start of a jump will always be slightly higher than the lowest possible height, because you cannot perform any move during the first two frames you are airborn during a jump). Edited October 1, 2012 by Veteru
Kyle Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Vet: You're amazing. Here's some tidbits based on SMP "counts". I main Naoto, so learning these values was critical. This is specifically for Naoto, but culd be a good reference when calculating Narukami or other characters. Air Throw counts (1) tick towards SMP. Bullet stance and All (5) bullets counts (2) ticks towards SMP. ground throw & C-follow counts (2) ticks towards SMP. AoA~C counts (3) ticks towards SMP. AoA~D counts (3) ticks towards SMP.
Adelheid Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Vet: You're amazing. Here's some tidbits based on SMP "counts". I main Naoto, so learning these values was critical. This is specifically for Naoto, but culd be a good reference when calculating Narukami or other characters. Air Throw counts (1) tick towards SMP. Bullet stance and All (5) bullets counts (2) ticks towards SMP. ground throw & C-follow counts (2) ticks towards SMP. AoA~C counts (3) ticks towards SMP. AoA~D counts (3) ticks towards SMP. Well. In many cases, multiple "parts" of attacks have different proration values. For all of these, they just aren't treated as being the same attack; Ground throw and the throw followup aren't the same attack, the first four bullets from bullet stance aren't the same attack as the fifth bullet, and AoA~C/D is the three separate attacks "All Out Attack," "All Out Rush," and "All Out Finish." I've written up a lot on the wiki to relate the damage formula discussed here to the frame data pages, though more of this data probably needs to get up there too. http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Damage_(P4Arena)
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