[CP] Taokaka Gamepyarel Discussion v:3 - Encore Edition

[Zoular]

Matoi has been doing taunt > spirit 3 for a while now, it looks like it's for reset opportunities.

[NeoGio0o]

Matoi puts taunt in combos because it is trollish, he found a way to blend trolling and oki in a way that he can still get mix up and add taunt into every combo. The amount of damage he sacrifices for dumb shit is outstanding, and this is why I have no faith in him whatsoever #IsaDAGod

[MashThat5A]

How do I not have white person movement with Tao?

[NeoGio0o]

lol white people.

You need to train harder! Movement is more about being generic than random, and using cancels like a dive kick to reset the situation.

Edited April 25, 2013 by NeoGio0o

[Ronove]

Matoi puts taunt in combos because it is trollish, he found a way to blend trolling and oki in a way that he can still get mix up and add taunt into every combo. The amount of damage he sacrifices for dumb shit is outstanding, and this is why I have no faith in him whatsoever #IsaDAGod

Well atleast now they're taunt combos for real.

Also, I wish there was more video footage of Isa's Tao, sadly he hangs around an area of Tokyo where the arcades usually do not record matches and tournaments.

[NeoGio0o]

I'm a little sad he hasn't qualified for Arc revo yet :sad:

Mame or Naoya should just give their ticket away to him for obvious reasons. So help me God if Matoi does his shit combos at Arc Revo...I'm flipping shit.

[Zoular]

Boy you sure are mean to Matoi, look I'll find some ESP vids to make you happy

[Cheefoo]

Welcome! Yea I actually have never done the trick edge cross-up until you posted the inputs because every time I say I'm going to do it I just forget. As of right now I'm stuck on whether to make a video showing some of the more technical Tao stuff or if I should wait for CP because lol dead game.

We're probably going to have to wait another year for a localized console release. I say do it. I love technical videos.

[KM Riku]

Qualifiers for Arc Rev are already over, but there are 2 Last Chances on the day of the event...so he still has a chance, although I don't really care lol.

About the taunt, Tao still could combo with her taunt even after CS1...it's just that her taunt P2 is so shit (10% I think) that isn't even worth of using it. And honestly...the damage difference in this taunt ender isn't even that high and it still allows the same 5D SMP oki that lots of Tao are using now.

Anyway, it's pretty sad that there's the possibility of a balance patch before the console version is out (almost a year after the arcade release, I totally see it coming), so there's a chance that we won't have top tier Tao 3:

Edited April 25, 2013 by KM Riku

[NeoGio0o]

Reducing even 50 damage is too much just to add a pointless taunt in a combo. Plus I know Matoi does shitty combos/hit confirms and most other JP Tao's are just bad at confirming like men.

In Isa We Trust!

@Zoular I don't like Matoi a whole lot anymore because I came to the realization that he is a Demi-God

@Riku She was never top tier to begin with, it was just a huge over exaggeration IMO. Even if you look at the Dan ranking the highest Dan you see is one Tao at 17-18 and another at 16-17. Not to mention going one step further and looking at the players that have attained that level; Tsujiakwa and Isa have proven that they can play almost any character in the game and still get the win. Both of these players can honestly play anyone and make them look OP and their word has a lot of weight among the players in the community so they can pretty much say a really biased opinion about ties and it will get gobbled up as fact.

The only version Tao was honestly top tier (S) was in CS1 where she had everything; however every other version was "A or A+". Most fighting games have about 2-3 characters at S and if I had to pick the top 3 it would have to be Hakumen (he has the CS2 Makoto syndrome),

Hazama (The OD system helps him in tons of ways), Litchi (she is broken before console release). If I could replace Tao with anyone in the top 3 it would probably have to Litchi at this point because she is very complex and usually requires the console release for her really technical stuff to be discovered.

Edited April 27, 2013 by NeoGio0o

[KM Riku]

Just Isa playing Tao should be proof enough that she's top tier because...yeah...Isa is a big tier whore in every BB game, Satoshi is also playing her and he's as much of a tier whore...but let me point some stuff:

1º-don't really take dan that seriously when talking about tiers. 1 month and a half ago the top3 were all Taokaka and not long ago the top dan of the ranking was a 19dan Platinum. The dan ranking is changing all the time and it's really easy to lose a dan (Fenrich, the top Jin player, lost 2 dan in less than 1 week. Matoi as well), right now you have even a Relius and Arakune in the top 10 dan and they are pretty much average in the game. The dan system is not a good way to measure tiers.

2º-pretty much all the japanese community agrees that Tao is top tier. If you don't believe me, just go to the jbbs tier list thread and try finding one where Tao isn't at S tier. Also, lots of people who had won a gold ticket to Arc Revolution gave a interview to Famitsu after the qualifier and on 80% there's a comment saying how worried they are about Tao because she's damn strong and she's the biggest challenge in the event. No other character had comments like this...well...except when Souji also said that he's also worried about Valk, who is being considered S tier by some players now.

Honestly, it's not even hard to believe Tao is top tier in the game.

Edited May 7, 2013 by KM Riku

[NeoGio0o]

As accurate as this may all be everyone knows that JBBS is like JP netplay general and unless you put Hakumen the God at SS there is no room for Tao in the S tier section. S tier usually consist of 3 characters and with Hakumen, Litchi, and Hazama honestly just being better characters all together she has to drop to either S- or top of A/A+.

Tao's greatest strength is that she is very "anti-meta" and has always went even with top tier characters in every version of the game besides CS1 where Bang was top and she went positive against him. Which brings me to my next point, JP players have insanely bias opinions and look at the game from the perspective of their character. I'm sure we can all recall when Satoshi said Lambda was S when he played Ragna or how Tsujikawa, Goro and a Carl whose name I forget said that Arakune was SS. If we try to calculate all her match ups numerically she mathematically can't be S. The reason why tier whores are using her is because she is perceived as the best character in the game and that is because she goes even with common threats such as Litchi, Hakumen, Hazama, Arakune, and Jin. At the end of the day a lot of the time people mistake player skill with a character being OP. That isn't to say that Tao isn't much better in CP, but to say she is the "best" character in the game is pushing it a little.

[XDest]

As accurate as this may all be everyone knows that JBBS is like JP netplay general and unless you put Hakumen the God at SS there is no room for Tao in the S tier section. S tier usually consist of 3 characters and with Hakumen, Litchi, and Hazama honestly just being better characters all together she has to drop to either S- or top of A/A+.

Tao's greatest strength is that she is very "anti-meta" and has always went even with top tier characters in every version of the game besides CS1 where Bang was top and she went positive against him. Which brings me to my next point, JP players have insanely bias opinions and look at the game from the perspective of their character. I'm sure we can all recall when Satoshi said Lambda was S when he played Ragna or how Tsujikawa, Goro and a Carl whose name I forget said that Arakune was SS. If we try to calculate all her match ups numerically she mathematically can't be S. The reason why tier whores are using her is because she is perceived as the best character in the game and that is because she goes even with common threats such as Litchi, Hakumen, Hazama, Arakune, and Jin. At the end of the day a lot of the time people mistake player skill with a character being OP. That isn't to say that Tao isn't much better in CP, but to say she is the "best" character in the game is pushing it a little.

So much truth here.

I still can't see that many of her matchups in CP being higher than 5.5. But I can't see any being lower than 4.5.

[Zoular]

I think she's BS in this version, shorter and simpler combos doing more damage than Extend. You don't have to see her as S tier, just keep Hakumen up there, while bringing Litchi and Jin down to A+ with her.

[XDest]

I think she's BS in this version, shorter and simpler combos doing more damage than Extend. You don't have to see her as S tier, just keep Hakumen up there, while bringing Litchi and Jin down to A+ with her.

The damage seems around the same for full combos, even if they're shorter. The corner carry off everything and everything ending in 5D~A is what's making her combos so scary.

In CSEX you had to have a nice confirm or meter to get that corner carry. Now it just happens as long they're in the air.

[KM Riku]

As accurate as this may all be everyone knows that JBBS is like JP netplay general

While this is not totally untrue, it's not like every post in jbbs is a bunch of crap. It's like saying all posts of tier list discussion in this forum are worthless cause we have people that have little/no experience and post some totally weird stuff that makes no sense. Also it's not like one or two people are saying that Tao is top tier, it's a pretty big part of the japanese comunity.

unless you put Hakumen the God at SS there is no room for Tao in the S tier section. S tier usually consist of 3 characters and with Hakumen, Litchi, and Hazama honestly just being better characters all together she has to drop to either S- or top of A/A+.

Okay, now this is just a really silly argument. Although we have lots of cases like that, there's no rule at all which says that the top tier usually have only 3 chars, specially when the numbers of characters is always increasing. CS2 top tier, for exemple, for a long time was composed of Makoto, Noel, Hazama and Jin, four characters, until Makoto got the S tier all for herself (there was not enough space with her big fluffy tail ). There's no number limit in a tier.

Don't really have to say much here, The reason why tier whores are using her is because she is perceived as the best character in the game and that is because she goes even with common threats such as Litchi, Hakumen, Hazama, Arakune, and Jin.

Arakune isn't really considered that much of a thread in CP, he's pretty average now, but whatver. While I agree that Tao have no problems with the other top tiers in the game...none of the top tier in CP have a problem with each other at all LOL, they are pretty much balanced between themself, hell the most you could say is that Haku have some mobility problems against Haz and Tao.

About the tier placement in CP...honestly, I think the top 5 isn't very defined at the moment, we have lots of strong chars and just a few too weak (in my opnion, Izayoi, Bullet and Amane). Right now, I think the strongest 5 chars in this game are Haku, Haz, Litchi, Tao and Jin, with no order. While Hakumen is very strong and has a big comeback potential, people put much credit on that and forget that he has some big flaws (big, no mobility, VERY risk reversals, no mixup or pressure) and he has been falling a little. Litchi/Hazama, however, are two characters that have been getting better over the time and currently we are having a big rise from Carl and Valkenhayn.

Remember that you don't really need lots of 6-4 matchups to be considered top, depending on the situation some 5.5-4.5 are enough for that when the game is kinda balanced (which I think is the case now, with some exceptions). As XDest said, I don't see Tao with many 6-4 matchups (maybe Tager, Arakune), but I could say the same from any top5 from this game right now. Tao may not be the best character in the game, but she is still among the strongests.

[NeoGio0o]

Like I said I agree she is strong, but she isn't the best in the game. CS1 top tiers were Litchi, Bang, Taokaka, with Valk and Makoto never really getting a spot at the top because no real final tier list was ever made.

Saying Hakumen has weaknesses honestly mind fucked me. You don't need mobility when you build meter for standing still and his reversals aren't even that risky, how often do you see him eating a fatal combo for mashing drive? The best punish you see is like 2A or grab which are nothing compared to punishing something like Ragna's ID. Hotaru can be JC and last time I checked TK Tsubaki is far from a weak mix up. In my opinion Carl and Valk are A tier at best and no amount of development will make a difference. Fundamentally Carl has flaws that makes him not a good fit for BB, especially now with the tournament format change in JP. Valk has always struggled in holding people in place in the pressure department and since players are mashing a lot more now his wolf stuff isn't as effective.

I don't think there is a fighting game besides maybe Marvel where you have more than 3 S tier characters because when you crunch out the numbers they would have too many even match ups and it would conflict with one another (Unless you have like a bunch of characters then it is possible). Tao vs Tager is like 6-4 and against Arakune it is about 5.5-4.5 (you only need one curse and its over). Arakune, Rachel, and maybe Izayoi are probably going to be the only characters to jump a few spots as time passes because they have a lot of potential and the game mechanics compliment the way these characters play.

At best she is S- or A/A+ which is still good, but unless we get CS1 counter assault back and Makoto CS2 damage she won't be S for awhile. The OD system actually hindered Tao rather than help her IMO.

Edited May 8, 2013 by NeoGio0o

[KM Riku]

Saying Hakumen has weaknesses honestly mind fucked me. You don't need mobility when you build meter for standing still and his reversals aren't even that risky, how often do you see him eating a fatal combo for mashing drive? The best punish you see is like 2A or grab which are nothing compared to punishing something like Ragna's ID. Hotaru can be JC and last time I checked TK Tsubaki is far from a weak mix up. In my opinion Carl and Valk are A tier at best and no amount of development will make a difference. Fundamentally Carl has flaws that makes him not a good fit for BB, especially now with the tournament format change in JP. Valk has always struggled in holding people in place in the pressure department and since players are mashing a lot more now his wolf stuff isn't as effective.

After this, I pretty much realized that there's no point discussing with your anymore, just saying a few last words (read that as "another wall of text"): Hakumen having no weakness? Are you serious? Hakumen is very strong in CP (pretty much a top tier), but flawless? Sorry, but having a bad mobility is a issue, specially in this game where we have so many mobile or zoning heavy characters. Tao herself should be the living proof of how mobility is damn important in the game, Hakumen (and a lot of characters) can't even catch her unless you mindless fly right at his face. Hakumen's 5D had 15f of recovery, 2D 30f and 6D has only 6f but a 17f startup...you have enough time to get a good punish on his face and lots of chars can even FC him...and the hell, you talk like throws in this game don't have a huge reward (Tao CP has a very good coner carry from hers and good damage), his drive being throwable is a big deal. About Hotaru, I actually forgot about it, my bad, it's a pretty good reversal, although you still need to spend meter from it and some other to get a really good combo from it midscreen. TK Tsubaki, while a very fast overhead and that does big damage, you need 5 magatamas to combo from it midscreen decently, it still makes Hakumen mixup options kinda poor. And sure, Carl is not a good fit for BB , you just have the same ammount of Carls and Hakumens in Arc Rev. And Valk wolf stuff not being affective? Holy mother, he just gained 2 more wolf normals that are damn good and reduces a lot the mashing in the middle of his pressure, also Valk is the character with the most representants in Arc Rev (8 Valks, all the other chars have at max 5). Won't comment on the Arakune matchup against Tao because I already made my point about it in another post, and he needs more than 1 curse now.

Honestly, you have some unrealistic sights about some stuff in this game (the Haku having no weakness was a pretty good one). Isa and all the other tier whores suddenly just picked Tao cause she is anti-meta in CP, even though that by your words she was this "anti-meta" since CS1? By your definition of "anti-meta", any top tier in this game would be one cause they have no trouble with the others top tiers...and that isn't anti-meta at all. You may not want to accept it, but Tao is pretty much top tier (again, maybe not the best top tier, but still there) and that's pretty much acknowledged by almost all JP comunity, but who cares, they are just bunch of netplay scrubs lol.

That's it, this ends any discussion of mine with you.

Edited May 8, 2013 by KM Riku

[NeoGio0o]

I'm actually not trying to argue with you =[

Arakune needs one curse on average to kill Tao and he can now reset his curse by spending the meter he gains during one rep of his curse combo on an RC reset that gives like about 70% back. Technically you would need two, but the 2nd one can be made guaranteed through Over Drive and wasting some heat. I never said Hakumen is flawless, but to say he has glaring weaknesses is absurd. Sure he has a tall hit box and he can't move around well, but he gains meter for holding 3 and has some of the best normals in the game. He is the only character in the game that benefits from standing still. His mix up is strong because he has TK tsubaki as well as a special move low that both lead to big damage and he builds the magatama he uses up. Not to mention he can now TRM and still has that whole one button mix up thing going on off any one of his knockdowns. Who needs three jumps and two air dashes when you can air grab people into 8K+? You point out the frame data, but in reality you really can't tell when Hakumen's drive active frames are actually done and he is in CH state. Plus there is subtle difference between 5D and 6D which I believe have different frame data. In the end you see players just yomi the drive mash out and go for grab or wait for the counter to disappear and attempt to punish/start pressure.

Tao has been anti-met since CT. There has never been a BB top tier that has completely dominated the other top tier characters; however you might be able to make the argument with NU in CT. This isn't to say Tao is bad because she is easily top 5, but in a game with only 23 characters is that really "top" tier? Perhaps if the game was bigger, then you would easily be right. On the topic of Arc Rev, I find using those stats to be a bit pointless because there was a lot of qualifiers that didn't have strong players so that leads to a lot of biases. I mean we have like 7 Tagers and you can see it in the qualifier videos that some got in to just the whole single elimination format alone and good 720.

Characters that benefit from the change in the system mechanics are the best characters in the game IMO. Tao unfortunately lost a defensive option and to an extent AB2 was nerfed because now you need to give up your burst to activate the super. On the other hand you have characters like Hakumen and Hazama who now don't have to bait wake up gold burst and can force you to take their best starters such as, 5C Houtenjin and other things of that caliber.

I honestly have nothing against your opinion and I'm not trying to come off as mine is 100% right, but I just can't see the light in your perception of the game. To be frank I don't see the need to take this conversation to heart because it is just two players (You and me) with different perspectives on the game and I thought we were more sharing opinions rather than trying to argue with one another.

[Ronove]

I wouldn't honestly compare the jp BBS with Dustloop or any other forum. The level of understanding of the game in the japanese boards is far, far above average. Aside from that there's twitter so you can just ask directly any of the top players their opinion on Tao and I'm pretty sure everyone will tell you she's likely considered among the best characters.

IMO Tao CP is probably among the top 3 characters in the game. So what if she doesn't deal insane damage anymore? What makes her scary strong is that:

- she regained her knockdown/oki

- she has corner carry from almost anything, and always gets knockdown/oki from it

- her pressure is still as godlike as before, she has so much variety she can even make a fool of players who try to IB her shit

- her corner mixups are solid without even spending any meter

- and if she really wants to spend meter she just needs 25% to rack some decent damage up

- her mobility is still as godlike

To be honest, this version of Tao looks even better than others (CS2/CSEX). You sacrifice broken damage but you get MOMENTUM in return, which is what Tao excels at. Without relying on meter. It's no wonder Isa, Mame and others jumped on the bandwagon because of this. The lack of a good counter-assault is practically a non-issue because Tao is not really supposed to be stuck blocking, if you're doing things right.

Of course all of this doesn't automatically mean that Tao is broken or that she's flawless, or that she's the only amazing character in the game. I pretty much agree with you guys saying that in this version her matchups are mostly even against other toptier characters and only slightly in her favor against others. That's just because (thankfully) CP seems to have a good pool of strong characters rather than having 3 ridiculously broken ones while the rest shares the spoils. But she's still up there, no doubt.

On the topic of Arc Rev, I find using those stats to be a bit pointless because there was a lot of qualifiers that didn't have strong players so that leads to a lot of biases. I mean we have like 7 Tagers and you can see it in the qualifier videos that some got in to just the whole single elimination format alone and good 720.

You're right, but it's also worth noting where some of these players qualified. Most of the Taos who qualified did it in areas where the competition is the fiercest (except for Naoya, honestly I don't think any region below Kansai is as competitive as the central part of Japan or atleast as good as Hokkaido).

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ronove

[Zoular]

Fundamentally Carl has flaws that makes him not a good fit for BB, especially now with the tournament format change in JP.

I wanna ask what format is that? Double Elim? And why would it matter, something to do with secret set-ups revealed in the match prior?

Also what is TRM?

[Ronove]

Throw Reject Miss.

[NeoGio0o]

I'll let you have the JBBS viewpoint because my comment was a little off and it is completely irrelevant at this point. Although I agree this is probably the best version of Tao since CS1 she isn't that much different from her EX version in the aspect of sacrificing damage for oki. Everyone always goes crazy about mobility and her strong neutral game, but fail to see that her pressure isn't that strong and is heavily dependent on how much knowledge and respect of the opponent. Her 6B is now -2 which means the only way to be plus on block is to 'C" cancel and the problem there is that you are in the air and can't really stop someone from getting out that well (can't cover all of an opponents options safely). Her mix up is as equally strong as it was in EX; however now you get more opportunities to do it "safely" because of her slightly better corner carry in this version. Just trying to clarify that you don't need your opponents back to the corner to do her longer corner combos so the j.D SMP removal is great, but you really only need the opponent to be relatively close to get the 6C to wall bounce.

The biggest reason why Tao is definitely #4 and not in the top 3 is because other characters can get oki and equivalent corner carry without having to omit any part of their respective combo. Tao's j.236BBBB is the highest damaging part of her combo and she has to either omit parts to make the opponent tech lower or just not go for j.236BBBB at all. Other characters also benefit from the OD system rather than be slightly hindered by it and they get greater rewards of; mashing out, reversals, oki, starters, get more meter, etc. All Tao really has his movement and it just isn't enough to subsidize the minor weaknesses in her other attributes to make her top 3 worthy. Again this is just my opinion and I have talked it over with other people to check for biases. Generally people agreed with my top 3 selection, but hearing Tao not technically being top was weird. If you feel that I'm wrong I don't see why we can't have a little back in forth without any feelings get in the mix. I like to assume we are all at the age where we can have an adult conversation.

@Zoular the generally gist of it all is that in single elim people are willing to throw it all away to doing a DP/mashing out and are reluctant to block because you honestly get nervous. The Carl Gods left Carl because they realized that it is far too much work to win with Carl and they would be better off using their player skill to play easier characters. I found Ryuusei going to Jin to be really weird and Kyaku going to Ragna rather than someone like Litchi to be even weirder, but I guess they both have always wanted to DP RC or something.

[Ronove]

I'll let you have the JBBS viewpoint because my comment was a little off and it is completely irrelevant at this point. Although I agree this is probably the best version of Tao since CS1 she isn't that much different from her EX version in the aspect of sacrificing damage for oki. Everyone always goes crazy about mobility and her strong neutral game, but fail to see that her pressure isn't that strong and is heavily dependent on how much knowledge and respect of the opponent. Her 6B is now -2 which means the only way to be plus on block is to 'C" cancel and the problem there is that you are in the air and can't really stop someone from getting out that well (can't cover all of an opponents options safely).

Well... if you're planning on RTSD the opponent then the time where you reach the point in your blockstring where you have to 5D~A/C means that it's already too late, IMHO. Think about it: a lot of high-level japanese Taos hardly do any classic blockstring which ends into 5D~C. Why? Because despite being safe, it also kills your momentum, and Tao needs to stick on the opponent and open up a gap to get in. That's why you'll aways stuff like 2a>2B>5B > stagger 2A/5B again, or 5B>j.2B, or [...]5C>214D>j.B etc. She has plenty of ways to reset her pressure so the opponent has to guess when to stop blocking and move/do something.

That's where her strenght of her pressure mixup comes from. Of course there are gaps where the opponent can mash out, but WHEN is it actually going to happen if everytime you commit to a different blockstring pattern and you reset your pressure at a different point? I think watching Matoi's pressure game is a good example of what I'm talking about. And mind you I am not saying that one should avoid doing her regular 5D~A/C ender blockstrings , but simply that she has so many pressure mixups to confuse the opponent on when to react that make her pretty damn scary, especially at the corner.

As for not being top 3, heh, it's not like being "top 4" rather than top 3 is that much of a difference. The top characters in CP are pretty much all near the same level in terms of being capable of winning a tournament.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ronove

[NeoGio0o]

Her stagger isn't mash safe and doesn't yield much reward in most situations. I find creativity to be the death of her because most creative pressure strings aren't mash safe and it really boils down to how much respect the opponent has rather than variety in the pressure itself being effective. In terms of resetting her pressure at different points that is match up specific and some characters don't give a fuck whether you are in the air or on the ground (#Ragna5B), while others have to commit to something different depending on where you choose to reset (Litchi). Personally I find Matoi pressure to be ass, you can get the same result for less effort and attain more damage.

#InIsaWeTrust

As for not being top 3, heh, it's not like being "top 4" rather than top 3 is that much of a difference. The top characters in CP are pretty much all near the same level in terms of being capable of winning a tournament.

You are God because you see that potentially being #4 is not bad at all. Please come to America and take all my money!

Edited May 8, 2013 by NeoGio0o