[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Raiza57]

I feel like that'd be avoidable with forward air tech into air dash...?

On that note though. I do something very similar where I delay the last 8D and if you do your j.2C allegretto late enough, people tend to tech into 8D and forget to barrier immediately.

Its only avoidable if you dont know where do put Ada or when to time the Fermata. After the 6a you do fermata before they tech, yet still put a delay on it. With proper positioning if they tech they dont have time to move.

[Pen_Ninja]

I plan to immediately start working on a style revolving around leaving my opponent in a standing state as often as possible to accommodate easier resets. Mainly just doing a lot of 46D and 6D with crossups and high/low mixups and avoiding any sort of launching attacks (2D, 4D, 2C, 623C, etc). Once I've whittled down enough with 2.5k combos into resets and such to the point where I can kill with 1 more combo or an unblockable resent into another combo, I'll go for that and hopefully close out the round.

It's a thought process I've kind of picked up from SkullGirls I guess since it's so easy to re-stand an opponent in that game it gives them no options as to when and how to tech and they pretty much have to block immediately. I want to do the same thing with Carl where my opponent will have to block my reset... because I said so.

It just eliminates the emergency tech vs roll forwards vs roll backwards vs delayed tech vs quick tech vs no tech situation you have to deal with when you try to go into knock-down oki usually.

I'm going to have to figure out how well my Ada meter is going to deal with this though... that's my first training mode task I suppose.

Any thoughts on my deal-with-my-resets-becuase-I-said-so Carl plan?

[NecroTheReaper]

If they have a DP, obviously let them know if they use it, it will get baited and they will get punished :O of course, making them deal with all the resets will change from character. Maining Relius, I know that his led ley can avoid alot of Carl bs, like fuoco into max 6C

[Pen_Ninja]

Definitely factored in.

For DP characters I'll to end the current combo primarily into an Ada attack so I can block any mashed out reversals before I go back into mixup. Mixing up when the mixup actually happens is also important. Doing a 15 hit, 2k combo and then resetting into another 15 hit 2k combo repeatedly is sometimes much less effective than mixing up the timing between resets. Even if it means cutting a combo down to 5 or 6 hits for a reset, especially when the reset starter is better than the last.

For example I could reset somebody with a NCO empty jump low 2A, go into 5A 2A 5B 2B 6D 236A but time it so the combo resets and 6D crosses up. This is not an optimal combo of course but the 6D starter is much better than 2A (I assume) and again it adds the further question on top of "is it going to be high or low? left or right?"... it makes people also have to ask "when is it going to happen"

[Psykotik]

Sounds like it could work. The main problem would be meter usage; with the limited amount of doll meter Carl has available to him, it's going to be very difficult to maintain that offense for a long time. And that's not even accounting for the amount of meter you'll be spending during neutral.

With that said, if you can somehow find a way to make that meter work out for you, by all means, go out and turn BB into a single-player game.

[NecroTheReaper]

Honestly, with Carl's mixup game as good as it is, the second you make them scared to do something, you win. Then again, Ada doesn't live forever if you don't give her a break... I'm so use to Ignis. Since Carl has Ada though, most people are forced to respect your oki anyway since it can't be reliably DP'd. With j.5C still being reversal safe if used low enough, it still gives plenty of mixup options that they're forced into or get eaten by a 4k combo and give you more heat for even more options.

[Raiza57]

I plan to immediately start working on a style revolving around leaving my opponent in a standing state as often as possible to accommodate easier resets. Mainly just doing a lot of 46D and 6D with crossups and high/low mixups and avoiding any sort of launching attacks (2D, 4D, 2C, 623C, etc). Once I've whittled down enough with 2.5k combos into resets and such to the point where I can kill with 1 more combo or an unblockable resent into another combo, I'll go for that and hopefully close out the round.

It's a thought process I've kind of picked up from SkullGirls I guess since it's so easy to re-stand an opponent in that game it gives them no options as to when and how to tech and they pretty much have to block immediately. I want to do the same thing with Carl where my opponent will have to block my reset... because I said so.

It just eliminates the emergency tech vs roll forwards vs roll backwards vs delayed tech vs quick tech vs no tech situation you have to deal with when you try to go into knock-down oki usually.

I'm going to have to figure out how well my Ada meter is going to deal with this though... that's my first training mode task I suppose.

Any thoughts on my deal-with-my-resets-becuase-I-said-so Carl plan?

I would be all for this form of style, however you should be concerned. This style requires a lot of Ada Hp. Something that Ada doesn't really have. Your style was extremely useful in CT because we had the Ada health to expend, however in this version I would say its somewhat impossible. Also if they ever did block.. or just counter assult or even mash and your forced on the defense, even if you got away immediately you would not have the Ada Hp to survive a neural war.

[NecroTheReaper]

So in the end, we all agree that it comes down to complete health management.

[Pen_Ninja]

Sounds about right. This was my real concern from the start and it looks like it's pretty much universal.

"I'm going to have to figure out how well my Ada meter is going to deal with this though... that's my first training mode task I suppose."

only 24-48 hours before the science begins and I figure out how to make this work.

[Psykotik]

What I'm wondering is if there's a more meter-conservative, defensively-leaning neutral game you could play so that you could save more meter for offense when it happens. It's not exactly something I'd "recommend" but maybe that could help form an idea or something?

On an unrelated note: here's an early stream of the console version for any of you curious cats :B

http://www.twitch.tv/snow19

[Pen_Ninja]

What I'm wondering is if there's a more meter-conservative, defensively-leaning neutral game you could play so that you could save more meter for offense when it happens. It's not exactly something I'd "recommend" but maybe that could help form an idea or something?

This is something I feel that I do already but in a more aggressive way. Playing footsies with Carl alone more often than I probably should but then getting the opponent to block something (anything), calling Ada immediately and going into offense for example. It's hard to explain but it feels odd to me using so much meter on brio and 8D to fill the screen when people rarely fall for it.

I've seen "pros" spend 80% meter or so before they get their first hit and then have no Ada bar left to combo or continue offense. That or they'll get Ada down to 10% hp, wait until it regens a bit (to say 25%) then do another brio and bring her back to 10%... then she gets hit after the brio whiffs and dies.

All-in-all I'm just really aggressive. It may be a bad style typically but it definitely works for me. I've won the last few local tournaments I've been in with it.

I want early access D:

Edited October 23, 2013 by Pen_Ninja

[Raiza57]

Sounds about right. This was my real concern from the start and it looks like it's pretty much universal.

"I'm going to have to figure out how well my Ada meter is going to deal with this though... that's my first training mode task I suppose."

only 24-48 hours before the science begins and I figure out how to make this work.

Forgot to mention that with knockdown we get to do more damaging combos along with the possibility of getting extra damage because someone is scared. Why you would think oki would be less optimal is beyond me, but please allow me to clarify.

Combo>8D does hypothetically 4k

Your combo>combo does 2.5k each so a total of 5k

My combo involves 4 Ada attacks: Brio, 46D, Volante & 8D

Yours involves 3 Ada attacks: 6D, 46D, 8D (Per string) total of 6

Of Ada's attacks Brio does the most damage, then 46D, volante, 6D, and lastly 8D

Im using the ones that do the most damage but not only that, because I dont care if my opponent becomes air born I have more flexibility with my combos into 8D oki. You are forced to rely on her attacks that keep them grounded, not only that but because you are not using air combos you have to keep Ada on for the most part or you can easily mess up the CON formation and because you are trying to avoid juggle combos you wont be able to go back into CON if you break the formation. So you basically get less damage, consume more Ada meter all for the sake of avoiding KD.....

As for knockdown: we get more damaging combos, more flexibility, more meter, more heat and the possibility of a reset on KD. By doing a meaty 6D you can beat a forward roll, delay tech, emergency tech, backroll, quick getup, and back rolls, all by timing 6D the exact same every time. So I dont really see how its a guessing game when your doing the same thing every time you knock them down. If a person thinks "Well maybe they might miss time the 6D so Ill try to roll" and actually decides to roll, you get free damage because they are scared. The only reason people prefer to use volante over 6D in CP is because they are worried about Dp's and DD which if they wake up and mash DP you will be forced to block and Ada will stop moving. But at the same time, this is the risk that everyone takes in BB against people who have heat or Dp's. So i wouldnt worry to much about it.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with your idea, infact there will be times when it is better to go for a reset rather that a hard KD, but why limit yourself to only doing one thing? As a Carl player you should always keep your eyes on the things that are possible and utilize everything to your disposal. So the oki may be hard to get the timing down.... But it is indeed worth it. The only reason 6Doki isnt used in EX is because it does not cause slide, I have used it in tournaments so I speak with confidence. 6D oki is amazingly powerful and now it is even better because it causes slide.. I truly believe the change for this move was to complement our crappy excuse for oki that is Volante. Using the depending of if we believe the opponent will mash DP/DD or not. Even though I dislike volante oki, I will still utilize it to my advantage. Dont turn a blinds eye towards things that may seem difficult. We play Carl, nothing will ever be easy for us. EXCEPT THAT DAMAGE :eng101:

Edited October 23, 2013 by Raiza57

[Pen_Ninja]

I'll have to re-explore oki in CP then.

To my experience in CSE there was always 1 or 2 ways out of pretty much any situation. Whether it be something that gets you out all together or something that causes a situation where you can very easily air tech away to safety.

An ideal game with the sort of style I'm after would usually go something like this:

Get in and start a combo: 2k

Quick reset against the standing opponent: 2.5K

One more quick reset into an unblockable reset setup: 2.5k

Optimal combo, preferably using 25 meter for a CT for extra damage 4-5k (Death)

I'll need to investigate how much doll meter I'm looking at here though is the problem.

It'll probably come down to me making a judgement based on the amount of doll meter I have available it to be honest.

The corner also has a fairly big influence on what I may be able to do. There's some good length solo combos in the corner that'll build doll meter and it'll be a better idea to go for those instead. Also in the corner, you only really have to cover one roll direction and don't have to worry about your opponent jumping backwards at all.

[wiredgod]

Who are Carl's bad matchups? Is this kind of thing that's known at this point?

[TD]

mostly all his current bad ones with haku being shotgunned from #1 on that shit list.

so it'd probably be litchi, tao, relius, hazama, mu, controlling superior ranges, most having dp's to pre-emptively stop a ToD before it's too late, completely denying carl his gameplan by bodying ada/ being everywhere at once.

then theres those mosquitoes. lambda, rachel, jin who can zone you for a long time and keep momentum a while, still can screw up and die

l also think amane will give him hell with those long range physicals and fabhops to zip around with. lv3 drill hurts carl and tao the most and he may be able to build consistently. 50 heat dp may be one of the few capable of escaping carl oki, which is big especially with 100 heat to rapid.

that's who it seems like to me, give or take. doubt there will be any cse haku flavored matchups. that was horrible,

[Psykotik]

My opinions:

Haku: His neutral shits on Carl's neutral, hits like a train, counters screw w/Carl's mixups + oki. Thankfully, the last part's not as bad as Haku's counters got nerfed but it's still something to watch out for.

Mu: Controls space w/normals like Haku, also hits hard

Tao: Has super flexible mobility, makes neutral a pain for Carl (as well as everyone else). You simply cannot challenge this character in the air.

Valk: cuz Valk bullshit. With that said, I actually think Carl does better against Valk than a lot of characters so this one's debatable.

Relius: Also debatable; both characters thrive when they have momentum on their side but Relius' neutral options can kill some of Carl's neutral options fairly easily, giving him an edge in neutral.

I want to add Hazama and Litchi to that list but I want to fight them more and get a better idea of how the matchup works before declaring them as bad. As TD mentioned, the biggest factor in determining the difficulty of Carl's matchup is to see how well Carl's neutral does against a particular character. Generally, if Carl can keep them from doing whatever they want at neutral (or can do what he wants), Carl will do ok in that matchup. The inverse is also true hence why I think Carl has trouble with the above.

lambda, rachel, jin who can zone you for a long time and keep momentum a while

I'd actually say that Carl beats Nu. He deals with swords pretty well and once he catches Nu, it's pretty much GGs since Nu's defensive options are crap. Vivace deals with Nu's various projectiles quite nicely if used properly.

As for his new matchups, I can't really make a call having not played the game yet but if I had to give a preliminary opinion:

Amane: Long normals and the like could potentially mess with Carl's neutral pretty badly.

Bullet: Honestly, I'm thinking that this will probably be in Carl's favor.

Azreal: Strong normals + high damage is not a combo to be scoffed at. This could be a hard one for Carl

Izayoi: No idea lol

Oh yeah, Carl-Carl is 10-0. Carl will always win, losing Carl has no hope.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Psykotik

[sinder]

Who are Carl's bad matchups? Is this kind of thing that's known at this point?

TD got all of them

In terms of the WORST of the WORST:

Valk

Tao

Mu (arguable, but she is definitely top threat)

Valk is difficult because of wolf form low bites

Tao is ridiculous because she can reset into neutral over and over (even in corner, it's not even a knockdown in CP...)

Mu because of lasers and air maneuverability.

Jin is also a very bad MU if you play a really good one (and yeah they're all threatening when facing really good players but the Jin matchup feels much different from the others because of normals...)

The rest either always run away (Hazama,Relius,Rachel,lambda (She's not really a bad MU but MU understand why you think she would be) but they're screwed when they're in C-O-N (sans Relius, but you can always bait his "DP" and grab for free damage) or they stop Ada from doing anything useful (Litchi's staff, which has a MU of its own lol)

[wiredgod]

Thanks for all the insight. I'm just wondering if a Carl player might want a sub in case of some truly difficult matchups. I was thinking Tao might be a good sub.

[Psykotik]

Thanks for all the insight. I'm just wondering if a Carl player might want a sub in case of some truly difficult matchups. I was thinking Tao might be a good sub main.

Fixed :3

In all seriousness, while it's not a bad idea, I'd honestly rather spend the time to learn/practice the matchup with Carl than to learn a sub as a half-assed provision against a troublesome matchup (I say this because my subs in FGs are usually really, really bad compared to my mains lol). I do believe that all of Carl's matchups are winnable, it's not like he has any miserable matchups like ST Honda v fireball character.

[Raiza57]

Id say Haku-men>Tao>Mu>Litchi>Valk>Rachel>Relius>Plat.... I wouldnt consider Jin a bad matchup... annoying, but not bad. His hitbox is really good for doing UB setups.

[NecroTheReaper]

Honestly, wouldn't the changes to Anima plus Hak's counter nerf bring his priority over Carl down a bit? General rule of mine vs Haks is tick throw all day long xD I'm mostly comparing Anima to 623C btw, since it has grab property, but can be blocked, but can't be countered.

[Pen_Ninja]

I think CP is going to hit PSN while I'm at work...

worst day ever D:

[Rishtopher]

Anyone do Challenge 20 yet? What's it asking me to do? Combo into astral?

[Pen_Ninja]

There was some trouble getting my copy unfortunately. I was able to play a bunch of casuals with friends last night but I only got to start downloading the game myself at like 2am this morning so I haven't been able to do any solo stuff yet.

Soon though..... sooooon

[sinder]

very very very very bad news.

my ps3 internet card fried . I am really sad and can use some consulting. The problem started when I first came to school (for those who added me,this explains my long abscence online).

I didn't think that it was a big deal, so I just waited a while until yesterday when bb was finally released. When I tried to download bb. "The hotspot could not be found" this error popped up over 50 times.

I confirmed that my whole card was screwed tonight

when I used my ethernet cable on my friend's ps3. It worked instantly. So I know that my ps3 can't connect onliine wireless-ly or wired. Even if I do buy CP it would only be casuals which would be rare since I'm not in boston .

Now I cancelled my play-asia order (just in time) and can't go online with ps3. Let us all share a moment of silence for this sad loss in the carl community.