Slayer vs. Faust

[sogos]

Didn't see much about this matchup anywhere and I have almost no experience with Faust. Any tips/tricks/:kitty:SHENANIGANS:kitty:?

[EasyModeNub]

Tips... hmm... be careful when you jump in on faust, unless you are coming from right above him his 5K anti airs you for free 80% of the time. Learn to react to item toss with DoT. You can DoT his from a little over 1/2 screen if he throws an item. He really can't do too mcuh to you once you get on top of him, most of the fight is just getting to him. learn some of the faust specific combos, they are fucking hilarious. Really all of this is pretty generic, so I would wait for CD to come in and give specifics since I never fight any good fausts.

[rtl42]

pro tip: faust has very very limited options to escape anyone's pressure, so once you're in, you should have a relatively easier time of staying close, compared to some other match-ups.

reason is his backdash sucks, his jump is slower than average (4F start-up, compared to 3F), doesn't have any strong close-range pokes, and even with tension, his best option is to like... DAA. (well actually, it would be to FD :D )

his overhead FB pops him into the air on frame 1, so it has its uses (i.e. dodge a low attack), but he can get hit out of it by all kinds of stuff (even Slayer's 6K!), so it requires some anticipation/insight from the Faust.

but as long as he aggressively turtles with items and "safe" j.Hes and a few other ground pokes, he can be a serious pain in the ass for the Slayer.

you know, in a lot of match vids of SL vs FA, i tend to see slayer players block his scalpel attack, but isn't it really easy to react to with a 6P? his hitbox stretches out with him, so i don't see why you shouldn't counter his scalpel with a 6P.

[Wirya]

The scalpel isn't that obvious-looking, so 6P-ing it isn't so easy. If you misreact, you will have to deal with 6P's long animation. IMO the best strategy is to bet everything on one big combo starter. Take risk, gamble what you've got, but don't let Faust read it.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I'm not really big on the whole "I stake everything on this single blow" kind of tactic, especially against Faust. Not like it's such a bad matchup that you need to, anyhow. You can kinda feel out when Faust wants to use the scalpel pull, in any case, so it becomes easier to "see" it on time if you're anticipating it. Like everybody has been saying, Faust gets wrecked once he's in pressure. Slayer pressure isn't quite airtight but that works for you since it gives Faust more chances to try something stupid and die. Dunno how specific I could be, until you get fairly close, it's a patience match. If you're at midrange you can take some guesses to try to trade in your favor- random 6P or 2H can knock him down and give you momentum. BBU if he's too j2K FDC jH happy? shrug eventually Faust will slip up a little and it's up to you to recognize it.

[sogos]

does blockstring into item throw give you free anything?

[CrimsonDisaster]

does blockstring into item throw give you free anything?

Free win.

(CH DoT)

[Chomite]

Didn't famous japanese faust player gave up becuase of slayer?

[rtl42]

does blockstring into item throw give you free anything?

if you have a copy of the game handy, i'd recommend just trying it out in training mode using the record feature. but if you don't have a copy of the game, then you can actually do a quick computation by looking at the frame data.

Faust's item throw starts-up in 12 frames (i.e. the item comes out on frame 13), and the move has a total of 23 frames (so 11 frames of recovery). He is also in Counter Hit state the entire time.

If Faust is going to attack you with a ground normal, and then cancel into item throw, it will probably be either f.S or 2D. (although, if he is anti-airing you, then it will probably be 5K or 6P, but that's not the situation we're talking about, i think.)

f.S and 2D are both Level 3 attacks. If you block f.S while standing, you will be in blockstun for 13 frames. If you block 2D, it will have to be while crouching, so add 1, and that makes it 14 frames of blockstun.

So then, f.S xx Item puts you in 13 frames of blockstun... but Faust recovers from the Item throw after 23 frames, so that means you have 10 frames to hit him. (And he's even in CH state, which is a great bonus for us.) Analogously, 2D xx Item gives you 9 frames to punish him.

Which moves does Slayer have that go active in less than 9 or 10 frames? P, K, c.S, 2P, 2K, 2S, 2D, BBU, DOT, EW.

I'm not including DHD because you have to add jump start-up, which makes it impossible.

I also didn't bolden 2D, even though theoretically you can do a huge combo starting off 2D RC, because 2D probably won't hit within 10 frames, even though it goes active in 7 frames.

All of the above assumes that Faust special cancels f.S xx item or 2D xx item as soon as f.S or 2D hit you. If he delays it, then he is just giving you more time to punish him. (If he delays the special cancel by one frame, then you get one extra frame to punish him, because relative to your recovery from blockstun, he recovers from item throw one frame later.)

So there you go, "proof by inspection" that Faust should not blockstring xx item throw against Slayer, especially if Slayer has 25+% tension.

[sogos]

Free win.

thanks for the tips guys

just had to level up a bit for a tourney

[rtl42]

to add a bit more to what EMN hinted at:

He really can't do too mcuh to you once you get on top of him, most of the fight is just getting to him.

Exactly, but Faust's entire game plan revolves around keeping you the hell away from him, so that is what makes the match not exactly a walk in the park. (At least, that's what the Faust player should be doing.)

Generally speaking, Faust is going to aggressively turtle by poking from just outside of your sweet spot, using Drill Cancel j.Hes to safely control the air in front of him, and tossing out items to confuse you.

If you're outside of your sweet spot, you have to be patient, because even though Faust can't do big damage like Slayer generally can, you will give him lots of opportunities to hit you if you're rushing in without a clear idea of how to actually get in.

p.s.: good luck~!

[IreulTheSlayer]

When Faust throws his head to keep you away, if you are on the ground - get a free approach with a SJ AD. His head bomb has a huge recovery, and if you are outside it's falling trajectory - SJ AD will go over it right to where Faust is.

[MacArthur Blunts]

One thing I have found that works against faust is just getting life advantage and turtling against him with lots of jump back or IAD back H (If you are in that situation. If you have life advantage and are in his face, just pressure) If you force faust to break his game plan of keep-away, he will get frustrated and start throwing more scalpel pull and throwing items. Scalpel pull can be punished mid block string with BBU. BBU can also CH scalpel pull from full screen. You can do the old Pilebunker trick against it too. (That being Slayer at the edge of the screen and when you see scalpel, you pilebunker. Faust can crouch under 5K/Mappa so using those as mid range pokes is not a good idea. FDC mappa to punish item throw is good. Learn to FDC mappa so it has almost all the range from the forward dash. I REALLY like turtling against faust when I have life advantage. I also like doing it vs. Bridget/Axl too. I believe you can low-profile under his f.S with 2K so he cannot special cancel it to item or scalpel. Dash through/6K or 2S oki is really good. Delay the 6K so it is a throw/5D/FB chop bait. CH confirm into DOT if you can for throw and 5D bait, 5P for combo if you bait the chop. I just did an Item write-up about what to do against them but the internet got hungry and ate it, so if you want to know specific vs. (item) strats, just post which item.

[EasyModeNub]

One thing I want to throw in that I haven't seen mentioned is that if you are outside of jH range you can fdc jump FD so that you get all the momentum and land near him. You will undoubtedly have to FD as you come down, but 90% of the time you are going to gain ground on him and put yourself in a more favorable position. Really this should be common sense IMO, but it's worth throwing out there. Also, never pick up food that he throws unless it's unavoidable. As long as the food is out he can't throw another item. Another bit of common sense, but I see people pick up the food all the time when it's completely unnecessary.

[MacArthur Blunts]

I don't know. I like free tension and health.

[EasyModeNub]

Free tension and health is nice, but I like a faust that can't throw items for like 5 seconds a bit more. I have the life lead 90% of the time anyways, so I take weakened zoning and my chance to get in. I guess if you need the life and tension though, go for it.

[Tsak]

one thing i have noticed in this fight is that faust has trouble with j.h most of his AA's either get beat or trade and its barely ever in his favor i mean i know j.h is beastly but.... it seems to do the job quite well against his 2K and 6P a bit too much

[EasyModeNub]

jH should beat any AA he sticks out as long as you come down right on top of him and activate early.