[CT] Jin vs Litchi

[Killey]

Anybody have more tips for this match up? I've been playing an exceptional Litchi player and though I am winning the majority of those matches I want to make this match up easier for myself. I'll be posting what I know about the match tomorrow as it's 6:00am right now. Need some solid strats though as I'll be facing a Litchi player in a tourney this saturday so I need all the help I can get as soon as possible.

[ryokoalways]

I'm sure it has been stated already, but this match up is pretty simple. When you work off neutral you are at a disadvantage because your D moves are fairly risky in this match up (unless somehow the Litchi lets you get within striking distance). You can air assault her because her real defense consist of her dp, and her ja, which is ok but not anywhere stellar. For defense, nothing really new here either. Watch for her mixup game, which always comes fairly early in her block strings. If the Litchi player is smart, she'd lock you down with her Big Wheel super, at that point it's like fighting Bridget's Mr. Rogers, only thing you can do is get experience and hope you can block all the shit. Otherwise, because her moves have notable holes during her block string, IB something and dp her occasionally to keep her honest. One final thing, Jin's a dp in this match up is a bit more risky, because if she is in range to block it in the air, then she can counter hit you with her jc(?) for a good combo. Use it sparingly.

[Killey]

Alright did a bunch of matches with Litchi today and here's what I've gathered from teh match up. It's definitely a 5-5 even match up for Jin. I'll go over the basics that have been mentioned before. Litchi with staff has better zoning capabilities then Jin so don't try to out zone Litchi. As mentioned before this makes the start of a round a pain for Jin as he has no reliable means to take the momentum at the beginning of the match. Litchi with staff has a weak close game so this is where Jin does the brute of his damage and how he is able deal with Litchi. Litchi's 2 best pokes are 6B[m] and j.C[m]. She uses these as part of her zoning game but she's also fishing for Counter Hits as both of these moves lead into her BnB's on CH and will put you towards or in the corner which is not where you want to be. 6B[m] has really good range and is one of her poking tools. It will tag you out of your back dash so back dashing at the beginning of the round is not recommended. On counter hit it causes a wall bounce that is untechable. It also leads into one of her many combo's that will put you in the corner or close to it which is where Litchi shines. 6B[m] will beat Jin's 5D. 6B[m], however, can be ducked under when crouching and can be punished when she recovers (20f recovery) if you are close by. From farther distances C Ice Car will punish it when crouched whiff. j.C[m] has incredibly good range and can be done low to the ground as well to try to beat out your moves. Again this beats 5D and on CH does the same thing as 6B[m] - untechable wall bounce that will lead into her combo that pushes towards the corner. It is her best air-to-air normal and is pretty even with Jin's j.B. However, it does not hit below Litchi so if they whiff this and you are on the ground it can be punished with Fubuki provided you are close enough. If you find yourself in the air with Litchi at a distance best to just guard rather than throwing something out. You basically want to space yourself close to Litchi and there are a variety of means to doing this but it's pretty risky for Jin to get in close at times. Properly spacing yourself with double jump j.B becomes helpful in closing the gap while avoiding her pokes. You may be able to land a CH into a BnB as well. She's got 3 anti-airs: Tsubame Geishi (her DP which is also the best DP in the game), j.A (limited use), and 2C[m]. Tsubame is the best DP in the game and is pretty ridiculous since it has godly invincibility frames on start up and contains a follow up when it comes straight down. The falling staff after Tsubame can hit you if you are not careful with your spacing. Respect her Tsubame and don't over commit to your rush downs as Tsubame will stuff your attempts every time. Tsubame is used as a wake up move and can stuff your oki games but it can be defeated with a well timed 5B when she neutral techs but it's way too risky if you don't time it right and if they delay their neutral tech. Jin's corner oki game with 3C into 236C will not work on Litchi. An attempt to rush her down while 236C just gives her the opportunity to delay her wake up then Tsubame her way out. You can do it to bait out Tsubame and try to punish after wards. When baited you have a limited time to punish Litchi and you can't dash in to punish so the best option I can find is to 5C immediately. 2C[m] is not her best anti-air move but is a good move against jumps and requires an IB or Barrier Guard otherwise it hits if you are in the air. On hit it can be buffered into Tsubame into another combo. It has bad recovery and can be punished severely since on CH puts her in a crouching hit state. It also extends her forward a bit so if you space your jumps right you can land behind her or cross up with j.B. Her air mix up game involves j.B[m] and this move is incredibly good. Litchi's j.B[m] is to Litchi as j.B is to Jin. It can be jump cancelled on hit or block and crosses up as well. Litchi's air back dash is extremely awkward and is kind of like a small back flip but puts her in prime distance for weird cross up scenarios much like Jin jumping forward then back dashing with j.B for an odd cross up. If Litchi is jumping all over with this move keep an eye on her and block accordingly. IBing it is pretty easy as well but I can't think up of a good follow up after IBing it. DPing seems too risky for my liking as she can just jump cancel out but I'll have to experiment with it in training mode. If she hits with this move it leads straight into a BnB. Litchi has one overhead move with the staff 6A[m] and it's pretty slow, however, she can extend the distance of this overhead with 2B[m] and 5B[m] it has some combo possibilities as well. Furthermore, the 5B[m] can be gatling'd into her 3C[m] which hits low giving her some hi/low mix ups. Typical Litchi players will gatling 5B[m] with 5C[m] into 3C[m]. You can IB both hits of 5C[m] and the 623C when they try to 3C[m], however, this isn't reliable as they could just cease the follow up leaving you exposed. Alternatively you can IB the last hit 5C[m] and then do the Ice Wave Super. When Litchi doesn't have the staff her zoning game significantly weakens but she has a better up close game with decent mix ups with her Rekka's. Her up close game is still nowhere near as good as Jin and good Litchi players don't fight too often without the staff. Usually, going staffless is part of her BnB, if they happen to screw something up, or in a staff retrieval state. Litchi's j.C without the staff is good and is probably her best normal while staffless. It can beat out IAD j.B/j.C if she positions herself above you. I'm not sure if this move counts as an overhead as well but it sure looks like it. She's got multiple overheads without the staff so be careful how you guard against her. Where Litchi shines is in the corner and all of her BnB's pushes you towards that corner or puts you in there. When you are knock down in the corner she is forcing you into a 50/50 mix up game of hi/low/throw. On knockdown in the corner she will have launched the staff for her Tsubame as part of her BnB. If you tech recover forward or backwards she can recall the staff to hit you and relaunch into another combo that puts you in the same 50/50 wait. In the corner on knockdown you want to either not tech at all or neutral tech. Litchi players will mix up their follow ups with either Shishinren or staff recall. Not teching can help avoid Shishinren to a certain degree but wait to long and you get hit but you can tech forward to safety but be warned if Litchi is on point she can knock you back down into the corner for another 50/50 wait. Staff recall will relaunch into another combo with corner knockdown. Observing what the Litchi player does is key because if they like to follow up with Shishinren it's best not to tech until the move comes out. However, this is still a disadvantage to you as you still have to block 2 hits of the Shishinren and your opponent is aiming for a hi/low/throw mix up on you. Her low mix up with the staff is 2B[m] and it comes out fast while her over 6A[m] but she does have several aerial overheads as well. Without the staff her low is still 2B but she has her rekka's to do that as well. Overheads are 6B, rekka's and j.C (I think). If you block 6B she is vulnerable for a punish but be warned if she manages to get the staff back during this mix up she can Tsubame punish anything you throw out into a combo for another 50/50 wait. If Litchi is rushing in after a neutral tech best to block low and then switch to high if you see her go for a overhead. If she's jumping at you just block high and punish when she lands provided she doesn't have the staff. The other thing she can do is user her staff super where it takes a form and starts punching wildly. If you don't tech the super will miss completely but she can 2B you into it so don't tech until you see her attempt an attack then barrier block to get her off of you. You'll have to keep an eye on a Litchi as it's a 50/50 guessing game and the wrong guess puts in the same 50/50 wait. It is very well possible for Litchi to just rape you in the corner with this 50/50 wait. On the defensive you are just going to have to see how your opponent plays and then block low for the most part until you spot an overhead attempt. Otherwise, try to IB as much as possible then super jump and Ice Car your way out. Some Litchi's will jump away from when their mix up games are blocked and then air dash with j.B[m] and on block can pressure you on the ground with hi/low/throw mix ups again but it's not as scary in comparison to when you have to deal with the staff returns. IB those j.B[m] and counter with a falling j.B or bait the j.B[m] and Fubuki her. Learning how to tech and block against her mix ups just comes with experience and requires you to understand that match up. 2 things to remember about staff retrieval. First, on regular staff retrieval with D it goes towards you and then comes back from behind. You can dodge both attacks and Litchi is somewhat susceptible to a rush down. However, her air dash j.C is good at stuffing air-to-air attempts if she is above you. Best not to go air-to-air with her at this point. I would try to rush in and Fubuki an air attack attempt but if you get hit by that staff and she's close by she will most likely combo you again. If you hit Litchi or cause her to block when the staff is being retrieved the 2nd hit of the staff won't come out and the staff will just return to her automatically. Good and bad as you don't have to deal with the 2nd hit of the staff but this gives Litchi her Tsubame. Second, Shishin does 3 hits and has limited space but it makes Litchi very safe as it will continue on even if Litchi is hit or she blocks. Do not rush Litchi down if Shishin is behind you as any hit will lead into a combo. Best to jump over it and try to bait a rush then aerial 236D to catch them off guard or to force them to back off. Remember that aerial 236D gives you 22f advantage on block. Just be careful not to get Tsubame'd if you rush her down after wards. When Litchi has 50% heat she has a midscreen super where she shoots a pillar of flame just in front of her. Be careful how you are spacing yourself during this time as careless air dashes will get sutffed by this super and it causes an untechable wall bounce as well so it can be combo'd. However, keep in mind that you can still input moves during the animation before the super comes out. If you are running towards her you can input the command for 623C and use the invincibility frames to go through the super. If you are close by you will tag her for a CH.

[Killey]

New info on the Litchi match up. Litchi's air throw is ridiculously good and can catch you out of j.B's, Ice Cars, and pretty much anything that puts you in the air. Be extremely careful of how you are jumping and what the Litchi player is doing you will always want to prep a tech. Litchi can bait you into the air with proper use of her staff so don't fall for it. Don't even jump at the beginning of the match as aggressive players can just air dash throw you. The worst part about this is that even if Litchi whiffs the air throw she can go into her j.B[m] which as I mentioned before is an overhead and hits behind her for good cross ups. Her overheads are actually stupid good and come out pretty fast and if blocked can go straight into a low for 50/50 guess which is too good. Litchi in the corner has some sick set ups for resets. If Litchi knocks you into the corner with her typical combo keep an eye on how she positions her staff. Good players will place the staff behind her and if they see you tech roll forward will do her D retrieval to knock you into a reset. Wait and see what they do. If they do D Retrieval then neutral tech and start that defense. If they do Shishin they tech roll forwards you may eat some hits but you are out of the corner. If they position the staff directly on top of you and have 50% heat be careful as they will end a combo in 6A which will OTG you. If you are mashing on buttons to tech you will neutral tech automatically and they will buffer into Kokomusho (sp?) the super where the staff takes human form and punches wildly. Do not NEUTRAL TECH when they OTG you with 6A. Take the hit let them buffer into Kokomusho and forward tech out. You can punish with 5C on a baited point blank tsubame. Jin's j.C, j.B beats out Litchi's j.C[M] and j.B[M]. 5C can punish after a 2B[m] (might be 3B[M] it's her split kick with the staff) and be counted as a counter hit. You can't punish after 6A[M] if they did it from a distance aways. I'm pretty miffed about that as that overhead is just way too good and needs a reliably punish on block. Just discovered that you can IB Litchi's 5C[M] or at least the last hit then punish with a run in 5B (2 hits), 5C, j.B, j.C, j.D, land, run in 5C, j.B, j.C, j.D, 214B. Litchi has to start this move really close to you in order to get that punish however if you are a distance away you can tag her with 5B (1 hit), 5C, 2C (Depends how close you are best to omit it if you are not feeling confident), 214B. This will remove a lot of her safety strings. Found a few ways to punish baited Tsubames. If you IB Tsubame you are guaranteed any CH combo of your choice (none of the crouching specific combos will work obviously) but you can do something like 5C, 6C, DC, 5C, 6C, DC, jump, j.B, JC, j.C, j.D, 214C. If you block Tsubame at close-to-mid distance you can punish with a similar combo as above. If you block Tsubame at max possible distance your only punish option is Ice Car. Overall seems like IBing is your friend in this match up and opens up a lot of punish opportunities for Jin. I just can't make heads or tails of this match anymore. I hate this match up more and more as I play with 3 Litchi's and 1 of them is starting to learn all of my Jin tactics so less shit is working on him and I'm basically having to play a tight defense and punish when I can.

[Coren]

I'm having trouble dealing wih litchi jump-ins: I like to throw out a fullscreen 236C to bait opponents into jumping and then punishing them accordingly until they respect it ( SONIC BOOM:psyduck: ); but this doesn't seem to be working that well against Litchi. When I try and go air-to-air with j.B she seems to beat me out with j.C [m] most of the time; and my DP's are getting barrier gaurded in air. What's a good way to deal with her jump in game? And while we're at it: Tsubame safe oki's?

[Killey]

I wouldn't really even bother going air-to-air with Litchi. It's not that her aerial normals have better priority then Jin it's the fact that they have better range and on CH lead to a tremendously good position for Litchi. I mean if you are in her face air-to-air then your aerial normals are better and will beat j.B[M] or j.C[M], however, she'll most likely try to air throw you in that scenario. You really have to be careful with when and how you do your j.B/j.C's against Litchi and in most cases it's probably better to just work her on the ground then in the air. You can also IB her j.B[M] and j.C[M] and CH falling j.B into a BnB. If she's just jumping in on you and trying to bait your DP's just straight up air throw her. Feint a DP with a running start then just quickly jump and toss her. If she starts to throw out j.B[M] she'll in reaction to this you start throwing our your DP's again to counter it. You'll want to try to force her on the ground and work on her from there though. There is no safe Tsubame oki game. The thing is smarter Litchi's will anticipate on Tsubame baiting and when you hover over them they will wake up throw or jab you. 236C corner oki can be Tsubame'd as well so try to bait and punish it with run ins and then option select barrier guard at the last minute. Meaty 5B's can work as safe oki but the timing is rough because of the way the tech system works in this game.

[bbq sauce]

Tsubami safe oki = C DP RC. C DP has twice as many invul frames, if she DPs, she gets counter hit, and if she blocks C DP RC should put you at frame advantage. The reward for the meter used isn't very good though, and the fact that it costs 50 heat to begin with makes it fairly sub par.

[slowatch]

for me it goes like this...she has the stick-make her chase you. she doesnt have the stick-get her. the problem with the 'run' theory when she has the stick is that as jin you cant really beat out her regulars making punishment hard. and if you are running and she plants the stick now your 236a/b/c's are kinda useless unless she blocks one...but then she has the stick again. i do think that baiting her dp is important, if you IB the first hit you can as stated get some good ch combos. i think what maks this match even is that (IMO) jin is fantastic at running away and then exploding all over the opponents face once they get comfortablethinking that youll block whatever string and slipping a 5b 5c or whatever move it is that you prefer...and that is really hard vs litchi. as far as dealing with her jump game, ive had some success w 5d as an anti-air against her but it doesnt work as well against her as it does some of the others. a.dp is a good choice vs her air game. as far as air to air i say block and throw j.236d if the spacing is good and she has the stick but dont do it everytime. in this match its important to mix things up alot. and i think tsubame safe oki's is an oxi-moron lol. nuetral tech, try to IB and if you dont IB watch for the follow up after the first hit. after IB on the first hit 5c>6c.ect is great. but thats only if she is right on top of you.