Digital Watches

To add to that: The main problem I have with Chipp is his ability to easily get into Axl's worst positioning: Right above him. I believe that Redbeard, Shoto, and I have all discussed options in this scenario in the strategies and tactics thread. Learn that stuff well, because it's absolutely essential against a chipp.

I'd say that's actually one of Axl's worst matchups, up there with Millia and probably worse than baiken. I haven't played much of it, but when I did, I lost a lot. Some of the things I learned: 1. Balls beat chains, period. Only use long range to prevent ball summoning, never when balls are already out, and try to get in as best as you can. You need to be on the offensive at all times, or a good venom will take the match's momentum and never give it back. Speaking of which... 2. Venom's rushdown is solid as fuck against a character without decent reversals and close-range pokes. If he has balls out, and is close in, and has the initiative of the match, you're going to be blocking, and doing not much else. That means, of course, that you need to learn to block, learn to avoid high-low game, crossups, and throws. Since some of Venom's game is air-based, 6P and 623S are nice if you can get them in when he's jumping, but still risky as hell. Gaps are too small to even risk a 22F startup DAA. I'd try a well-placed Raeisageki or Housoubako to get out occasionally, but if you can manage to IB/FD Venom's patterns properly, that will serve you best. Your main priority is to get him off of you, and not let him get back on. To sum it up, this is a rare match that Axl wants to play full-on offensively almost every time. Any competent Venom can outzone Axl pretty easily, since his projectiles are numerous, safe, beat chains, and, most unusual of all, are usually out of the way of a rensen. What's worse, if you're rushed down, it's a very downhill battle. Keep him locked down, don't run away, and don't lose the offensive.

No worries, I was just confused.

That's new? I thought that was what we were talking about all along.

Presumably it would apply to anything that's grab invulnerable and off the ground. Probably the last few active frames of VV, for example.

Yep. Exactly. It's to distinguish a combo that can't knockdown from one that can.

Safe jump-normal into block is a good way to do it. Counters if you're ballsy. Or just a fake meaty 2K or 3P.

Honestly, I prefer starting that combo with 5D, j.D, j.D, j.H, (j.D bomber.) If you can't get away with that, just go for two j.Ds, slight delay, bomber. Not only does it do more damage, but it is a very scary headgame you can play with your opponent. Obviously you'd only be doing this in the corner. After the j.H, if you delay even slightly, there's a very small techable window. Unfortunately for your opponent, the spacing makes it too easy to airthrow them should they decide to tech in this window, scoring you a free corner crossup setup from knockdown. Also, since Axl has airthrow options from a LOT of his combos, I think his corner crossup game is worth mentioning. Most crossup moves, such as 63214S, 63214H, j.623H, and j.63214S, can crossup on wakeup in the corner if timed properly after an airthrow. Of course I'll advocate occasional usage of JI'd 63214S FRC here, but what's more important is the ambiguity that a pre-meaty airdash offers. Given proper timing, it is possible to make a situation that's almost perfectly visually ambiguous, since normals (j.Anything, but probably you'll want to do H or D), unlike specials (Kokuu and bomber), won't cross up after an airdash in the corner unless done in a specific manner (I think it has to do with the airdash ending, thus turning you around, before doing the move.) The point is, if you airdash in, you can set up a very ambiguous crossup, using the especially fast Kokuugeki and j.H. You can also, of course, empty-airdash and throw, or do a low if your opponent is especially slow to react.

Er... I disagree entirely with the first part. While the difference is <10 frames or so, in a game with 0-frame throws, that break is the difference between getting thrown and not getting thrown a lot of the time, whether it's because it prevents you from getting into throw range, or simply allows you to get your own throw/attack off faster.

Also, you should have teching on front/back and frame 0, unless you're testing something special.

What's useful about the frame data is a general concept of when the FRC is. For example, if the FRC is at 17-18F and the first active frame is frame 19, then you know that the FRC is right before the active frames start. If you're going to use the blue flash as a training tool, don't be mislead: The blue flash in training mode occurs during the FRC window of the move itself, so if it's a 2F FRC window, and you try to watch for the flash and then hit three buttons, you will never hit the FRC. You have to be hitting the buttons during the blue flash.

2P+Rensen is pretty safe, but it's not gaining you anything unless you FRC it. Mixup should be a matter of forcing your opponent to guess which thing you'll try, both of which will advantage you if they guess wrong. While you may not be able to be punished for doing rensen (I still think VV could beat it if the 2P is IB'd), you'll certainly lose your initiative to a good player.

Um... Unless you've found a way to magically negate OTG properties to get a dust into homing jump from a knockdown, that's no combo.

The problem is that once you've committed to the rashousen, if you don't feint, they can simply jump and kill you with a counterhit. Doing rashousen at that range is risky as hell in the first place, as anyone with a fast move can hit you out of it on reaction if they have the faintest clue of what's going on, and in cases like Sol and OS at level 3, you'll get hit out of rensen, too. Rashousen <> Rensen is actually a smaller part of the Rashousen mixup than Rashousen <> Feint, since it can be punished by the exact same things.

That ordersol just froze the fuck up. Good job zoning, that's a strong tactic vs. OS, but you've got to learn how to switch into offense mode. Basically, while that ordersol seemed fairly inexperienced (at least in that matchup, but all the combos he dropped lead me to believe that it's true in general), he could have killed you a lot sooner if he hadn't dropped a lot of pressure opportunities. While it's good that he fell for 2P rashousen like... five times, a more experienced opponent would have punished you for not feinting it at least some of the time. You also should FRC your rensen and lay down more aggresive pressure when you get the opportunity. Your defense is decent, but your offense is lacking. I'll watch the other matches when I have more time. Good job though.

I don't think 3P is JCable though...

Well, it all really depends on how good the character's DAA is, and how many other options they have to get out of situations where you'd use one. For most characters, there are at least a few situations where it's probably optimal, but the moves differ a lot. Unfortunately, like any other move, DAAs can be baited and punished, which means loss of 50% meter and probably a combo's worth of life. It's a risky move, but necessary in many cases, sort of like Burst.

Actually, I've gotten 6963 to work, and hit very low, but don't rely on it.

Yeah. I'm not a big 3S player, but it seems like in that game, the threat of a parry is felt much more often than parrying actually happens. That's kind of what I think will happen with SB.

I get the feeling that (at least in Japan), it will become more relevant as the game progresses. Currently, the game isn't very thoroughly known as far as what blockstrings are possible, tricks to do less risky SBs (Slash barrier, FDC->FB are already known) etc. But just because it'll be more important... doesn't mean you'll see it more. People will gradually learn to do slashbacks in numerous situations, forcing people to vary their blockstring game, sometimes to the point of making more breakable strings. The risk-reward will shift, so that being punished for a breakable string will sometimes be more desirable for doing a predictable/easy to SB string, getting SB'd, and getting punished worse. I've already started to see this happen in Portland (not even a very strong scene), as our resident Slayer has learned to SB almost any string ending in Jam's 6H, thus making Hintalove more hesitant to do it in a blockstring against him. But this is all theory fighter. I can't claim to know how the game will develop, maybe SB will never catch on, or will be determined to be too risky to try. Who knows?

You lost me at "Hori Fighting stick." I'd assume you can get a converter somewhere.

Aye, no harm, no foul, man. I'm not one to take disagreements personally, so no need to worry about offending me. Either way, I agree that for the most part, playing it safe is always better, but even in Japanese match vids, I see some really cool stuff that players do very infrequently that seems to work merely by virtue of being completely unexpected. Situational or unusual options are that way for a reason, and by no means do I endorse doing any of this wacky stuff with any degree of frequency. But I DO think that it's important to do it sometimes, and moreover, as a general rule, to have knowledge of huge amounts of options at any given time. Also: That stuff you mention is really good. I've used 2P, rashousen a lot, and never even thought of 2P vacuuming in the corner for a corner crossup. I also like the meaty 8 Rensen followup, and am thinking of uses for it (Unfortunately, Portland hasn't been playing much lately)

I disagreed with some of the things you said, until I read this part. Most of the options I mentioned are like... wacky, once-a-match-at-most ideas, so perhaps beginners would be best served playing it safe every time, like you say. Notes: 623 catch should be used only if you are able to react to something happening. This, of course, is difficult, and comes with matchup experience. I only mention it because of the 1-frame startup, which makes it more ideal than blocking against some reversals. I am well aware that this is a very risky move. The only reason I even mention the 214 catch is for occasional use against VV. Again, this is a reaction time thing. If you know which supers have startup after the superflash and not enough invincibility to go through Axl's, leaving yourself just outside of throw range and then inputting the super motion during a super freeze is the only way to cleanly beat supers that hit one frame after the super flash (May's anchor super is an example.) Of course I'm not advocating using it as a meaty or anything. I'm a little hesitant to advocate j.S as an oki option as well. I haven't tried it myself, and it sounds very susceptible to... a lot of things that can be done on wakeup. G. Blood, since you suggested it, could you weigh in with any experience on the matter? Yeah. Like I said, it's no throw bait againsty anyone good, what with the 11 frames between starting the move and leaving the ground for the opponent to simply decide it's not a good idea to throw. Please note that this is already mentioned. Regardless of whether they block low, it's hard to beat with most reversals from far away, and thus forces them to either block it or try to backdash, creating an advantageous situation for Axl. Hadn't noticed that. Thanks. Yes, the jump-install is what makes this viable as an oki option (as well as a move in general). I go over it in more detail in the "Strategy and Tactics" thread. You should check it out. I was actually wondering about the reversal safeness of it myself, but the crossup option, as G. Blood mentioned, can be rather ambiguous, especially if the opponent is expecting a jump->Kokuugeki. Therefore: Jump over, air backdash, j.H is a good double-crossup if you can pull it off.

Thanks! I completely forgot to mention j.H as an oki option, and didn't even think of meaty j.S. Gotta try that sometime.

Since the oki section of the tactics thread is nonexistant, and Axl's Oki game is super-important, I think it warrants a thread devoted to it. Since Axl's got a good amount of options, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not covering half of the things one can do. I'm also a big fan of ridiculous impractical stuff, so I'll do my best note things you're not going to use a lot. Note that I have tried all of this sucessfully, but that doesn't mean that it'll work on everyone, or very often, or on every character even. Oki game has a lot to do with getting a sense for what works when, versus whom, etc. As with any thread on this forum, don't be afraid to correct or add stuff. c.S and 5H Cool meaties to start combos with. Not particularly special. Both hit mid, combo into sweep, are special cancellable, and are fairly big. 5H is notable in that it's level 5, and has a weird hitbox that makes a lot of things go through it (I'd call it upper-body invulnerability, but the frame data disagrees). f.S This can be useful merely by virtue of a very disjointed hitbox and stagger on counterhit. I don't use it much, but it beats a lot of weaker reversals, as well as premature throw attempts. 2K - My favorite meaty, hits low, can be made to hit outside of throw range of most characters and still combo into c.S. It recovers really quickly, goes under a ton of things (including Vapor Thrust), etc. I probably wouldn't use this against Sol unless I was 159% sure he wouldn't use VV. 3P - The cool kids' version of 2K. You can do it from much further away and still combo (Again, if you're one of the cool kids, you can do 2D into Rensen off of this at basically maximum range.) While this doesn't go under much, it's pretty safe against most reversals if spaced and meatied properly. TK Bomber - This is a nice overhead, and as a lv. 6 move with almost no recovery (if TK'd right), it has frame advantage on block. Not reversal safe at all, but it is safe against most throw whiffs (6H, 5H, what have you). If you're in the corner and they don't block, you get some nice massive combos into knockdown. This is a nice way to beat a throw attempt by some characters. 6H - Another overhead, only use this if you're confident in your ability to meaty it very deep. It's a great way to score a ground combo without prorating, and is also very safe on block (except against Potemkin) but it's also... not very reversal safe at all. You can sometimes bait and beat a throw with this, but it's pretty easy to see before one would have to make the judgement as to whether to attempt to throw you. Raeisageki (S) - Especially with jump install options, this thing is nice. Go for a crossup, non crossup, FRC and throw, FRC and backdash, FRC and block, FRC, dj.Throw. Whatever. It's cool. This is no different from the non-oki usage of the move. Raeisageki (H) - If you're psychic and really hate having meter, then this is for you. Do it just in time to bait whatever reversal you know for a fact that your opponent will use, land on them in the first few frames of recovery, RC into big combo. Yeah. Good luck with that one. If you can pull it off, however, it'll almost surely net you a combo. The variance you're allowed lets you wait out any reversal in the game and usually counterhit it. Then, after the RC puts you instantly on the ground, you've got ample untech time to hit with something into a combo, whether your opponent is on the ground or in the air. 2H - A good meaty against people who don't block low or stagger on wakeup. You want to hit with the last few frames of the pullback so as to give your opponent minimum time to stagger. Housoubako Dragon-punch counter, this will beat basically any non-low reversal that only hits once. Really, not that good an idea most of the time, but the cool thing about this one is that you can input it 2 frames before the reversal will hit you. If your reaction time is awesome, this is for you. It gives you a knockdown, or a big combo, if you get a counterhit or cancel into the FB followup. Either way, it's nice that it's unblockable. Don't try this against VV. Also, this is strictly a once-in-a-blue-moon thing against good players. They will learn fast, you will probably get baited. Tenhouseki A REAL man's catch. Might be good to get Sol scared to VV. Not good for much else that isn't already covered, due to terrible recovery. Byakuerenshou! Oki... super? It's better than you think, but that's not saying much. It's invulnerable for quite a good chunk of time, and the invulnerability starts at frame one. It can be input in the middle of any super flash, as long as the opposing super starts at least one frame after the flash. It will beat a good 1/2 of the supers in the game if input in this manner (Particularly Zappa's unsummon super and May's anchor super.) It'll also get you through a throw attempt. It also knocks down. Anyway, it's not that great, as it's really punishable, unsafe on block, etc., but is good for some of the situations mentioned, and is also massive style points. Either way, it's better than trying to do it as a reversal, which is a terrible idea the majority of the time. Rensen Mainly just there to force the opponent to block. Follow it up to beat an IAD or to force them to block low and for longer, or just FRC it and continue pressure. Running Kokuugeki Running in is getting into the cool kids' territory again. Basically, when you're running, you make yourself look a lot more vulnerable than you actually are. This will not work as well on experienced players, but it still creates a highly ambiguous situation to deal with, since you can do any of the above oki options while running, not to mention blocking or empty jumping. People who are inclined to try to reversal throw will often fall for run, TK kokuugeki (or jump, delay, kokuugeki, or IAD kokuugeki... you get the point.) This will counterhit if they attempt to throw, and may not even require meter to get you a nice combo. Try to time the jump at the last possible moment, as this will make it more difficult to react to. Your goal is to be in the air no sooner than the frame they press the hardslash button. The true danger of this to your opponent is that it will make your opponent hesitate to throw you on wakeup, making throw range more accessable as an oki position (This is somewhat character specific, as a lot of characters don't rely on wakeup throw much.) This allows for new options, like running FD into throw. j.H A running j.H is totally safe and starts good combos or pressure. It's a great, reversal-safe way to start oki. It can be used straight, with an airdash, as a mixup alternative to empty-jumping, and is one of Axl's best multi-crossup options. (Gwyrgwyn Blood, Kobayashi) j.S A meaty second-hit j.S is a good, lenient way to start a ground combo. (Gwyrgwyn Blood) Anyway, I hope that some of this stuff is at least decently usable, and that more, probably better stuff will be added by other players.