Ben Reed

That 2A IS pretty damn impressive. I still hate that move (slightly less as my homework over the weekend has taught me more about what it can and can't stop), but damned if I don't respect it. The range alone is astounding. This matchup will change for BBCS2 in terms of what Bang can do to her, certainly, but if the only significant change to Makoto is no more parry cancel, I don't see too much changing on her end. She won't be able to sodomize people midscreen from zero heat anymore, and her blockstrings won't be quite as godlike as the one Reioumu described, but she still has plenty of tools to propel people towards the corner, where she will still probably do quite decent damage by way of her level 3 D combos (I want to call them "D loops" but of course they're not really loops at all). I think it's anything BUT futile to build a knowledge base for CS1 Makoto.

I always do TK D nails point-blank (usually from 5A 5B 2B). I don't pretend that this is anything more than a personal shortcoming rather than an actual matchup hurdle in advanced play (I hope I included enough disclaimers to that effect in my posts), I just tend to brain fart frequently after D nails and always go for raw tick throw because I'm deathly afraid of telegraphing myself too much with the 5A check (where I think I will reflexively go for the same followup every time and sooner or later get called very badly on it...this is another personal problem I'm working to address). Yeah, I probably was unclear on that point. I was only considering this really as an answer to this particular Makoto player (he's not total scrub-level, he can do several reps of the parry loop combo now [enough to get 50 heat and finish with super], can finish 90% of his D loop combos...he's just a little excitable and jab-happy is all and that throws slow-thinking cowards like myself, who wouldn't do the same thing in his situation [where we didn't know what to do, which I don't], for a loop...yes, that projection complex is another problem I'm working on). I only suggested Daifunka/2D for players of a similar disposition (I obviously wasn't clear enough on that count) more as a psych-warfare weapon than anything else; punish terrible unadaptive mashing instead of smart noncommittal interrupt mashing to scare the bejesus out of them and make them uncertain about mashing even when it would work. I certainly didn't intend to prop it up as a legitimate punish for advanced play. But in light of your point I'd definitely take Daifunka off the list, as I'm pretty sure the super flash + Daifunka startup + short 2A recovery would mean that this particular player would have plenty of time to react, stop mashing and block. I realize that much, hence why I didn't cite 2D as a true punish -- merely something to consider if you think the Makoto player lacks the ability to bait it. ...Doh. I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier; if the startup is long enough to jump block, 5A interrupt should have been obvious. One last thing: Thank you both (Dacidbro and Reioumu) for posting in this thread to correct me. Honestly, the stuff I posted was mostly intended to lure in people like you guys to correct me so that some high-grade knowledge could finally be dropped in this thread. (Does that count as trolling?) You guys DID clear a lot of stuff up for me and I'm grateful for the input. I'll delete my post on 2A so it doesn't clutter the thread. Looking back, I should also pare down the old one just to the stuff I got right.

Is there any video footage of loke test Bang yet? I wanna see the situation on the ground, such as it is. As long as they don't Rachelize him I'll probably keep him in my back pocket over my hack Tager, but I'm mostly looking at Valkenhayn right now as the long-awaited 3rd character in this entire game I deem cool enough for me to play (the other two, of course, being Bang and Tager). EDIT: Also, do we know that the command is for Valk's wolf-rush super (I hereby christen it "Wolf-funka"), or is that the hcb, f + whatever ground super? When the translation mentioned it was like one of Chipp's supers, I thought they meant the gimmicky one where he disappears and slashes back and forth across the screen.

As long as Bang can make up for lack of damage with reliable momentum and still-disgusting nail pressure, I think I can deal. I'll just treat him like SF4 Bison (God, I would KILL for a charge character in BB, to the point where I'd even consider *shudder* Platinum if I saw she had a movelist like [2]8C, [4]6A, etc.) -- tiny bits of damage, but when he gets in, he tends to stay in and bullshit people with ludicrous normals and showers of nails. Not gonna lie, though, I'm gonna miss top-tier firepunch Bang something fierce. His and Tager's were the only BnBs I could finish with regularity...nice, ground-centric, jump-cancel-minimal combos with a lot of leisurely hit-confirms and ludicrous momentum attached. Hopefully Wolfman Jack will prove similarly cheesy without requiring TOO much more homework on my part. I guess the REAL answer is to play more Guilty Gear so that this game becomes artificially easier. It should say a lot about my preference for game pace and execution requirements that my favorite game is CvS2.

This is all basic punishment crap; I haven't played enough good Makotos yet to comment on strategy and tactics. Random stuff I tried: - Her 6B (overhead punch) is unpunishable even on IB. Nothing earth-shattering; it just surprised me is all. - IBing the second hit of her 5CC (or 6BC) is hard due to the surprising speed at which it becomes active (for a heavy move), but if you can do it, you can 5A punish her and you're free. Start a combo and move on to a bright new tomorrow. - Best answers for her 3C depend on the range, speed, and grounded/aerial state from which you spotted it. - Versus anticipated blockstring into 236A, 5A or Daifunka the startup. Thanks Reioumu for pointing out what should have been the first thing I thought of. Hey, there's room to MOVE in this post now!

I dunno about 6-4 Makoto's favor, but I'd buy it being as even as 5.5-4.5 Bang. Bitch's jabs are almost as annoying as yours, she does decent damage if she can finish the loop (or even the level 3 D loops in the corner), and her pressure actually takes some thought and patience to escape. Ultimately I think IB 5A will put Bang ahead, but if she's played right, she seems to be nowhere near free for Bang. I can't believe I didn't think of barrier block versus her strings; I've been trained so hard against using it (I initially used it way too much and started getting guard crushed by Arakune, back when I played Tager) that I often forget it exists unless I'm blocking something that I know does chip damage. If I want to try barrier to get some breathing room, should I do it from the start of the string (say something like 5B 5CC), or can I wait a bit before barrier-ing (like around the second C in 5CC) and still get some decent space? I flailed my way to death against a mashy Makoto last night making a lot of mistakes (mostly panicking because I kept failing to IB the second hit of 5CC and kept trying command throw after D nails, which lost to mash 2A...and I didn't adapt because I was getting so mad at losing to this particular player that I kinda lost my head). I'm going into practice mode tomorrow to figure out what I did wrong (I already have several ideas after reading this thread, most of them involving the lack of IB 5A), and after I do my own homework I think I'll run it by you guys to make sure I set things up properly and am reading the results properly. EDIT: For clarification, my experience is 100% based on face-to-face play. I have yet to play this game online.

Hot damn, Roastbeef asked exactly the question I wanted answered. Nice work. Your avatar confuses me, though...can boobs be manly if they're not man boobs? I have kind of a subquestion regarding the FRKZ BnB; if you just do a basic 3x j. 4C combo (say, 5B 2B 2C xx 6-dash xx immediate 5D, (9-dash j. 4C) x3, j.D, land, etc.), does that work on all characters if you time it right? So far I've only tried it on medium-size characters (mostly Jin/Ragna) and I can make it red all the way to a Daifunka about 50% of the time (I mostly just do the j. 4Cs too fast and end up too high for the j. D to connect). Can I do more or less or is three a good safety number?

Honestly, the stuff they're proposing for Ragna so far baffles the hell out of me. Where Bang and Litchi are getting a kick in the nuts, Ragna seems like he's currently completely and unreasonably castrated, despite his life handicap and his initially obnoxious pressure having been mostly downloaded by late-term CS play. No more pickup after 2D? I'm sorry, if you get hit by a move as telegraphed and unsafe as 2D for jumping the gun on defense, you deserve whatever combo you eat afterwards. But thankfully, most of that Ragna stuff sounds so unreasonable that I imagine most of it will get reverted pretty swiftly after public play, assuming it's mostly accurate.

@Bang changes: Obviously something had to give with his meterless damage, and I do hope there's a more meaningful tradeoff between damage and seals now. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that many of the problems Bang posed for lower-tier characters couldn't be changed by simply changing the proration on certain of his combo-centric moves, and of course some sort of nerf to 5A couldn't hurt (probably not a +1 frame to startup, as that might cascade a bit too radically with other things, but perhaps cutting off a chunk of its attack hitbox couldn't hurt; as it stands it has fairly ludicrous range for its speed and ability to stuff pokes AND start combos). People bitch about the wallbounce combos, but I really would hate to see them go; at the risk of making people burst blood vessels, I LIKED Bang's firepunch-centric combos a lot better than his more technical but toothless CT combos. I would much rather see them retained and toned the hell down rather than taken out altogether. CS Bang was one of the first rushdown characters I found in BB who actually fit my style (and the bursting begins!), it would kinda suck to see him reverted to CT mode. But we'll see. The 5B nerf is warranted, I think. No complaints there. Ashura nerfs seem kinda premature and I have to wonder if they'll stay. The fact that it was safe on block in CS was a little ??, but otherwise it did low enough damage (for Bang, anyway) and granted little enough advantage (-1 on hit, it was nothing BUT an escape tool or emergency combo filler for the kill) that I don't think it warrants much nerfing beyond perhaps making it punishable if baited (if only to put it in line with pretty much every other reversal super in the game). I really don't get all the comments about forcing people to "play creatively" with a CT-mode Bang over a CS-mode Bang. Did Bang get disproportionate damage for basic/meterless setups in CS? Yeah, there's no getting around that. Was playing him brute-force with no regard for spacing/bumper trickery/fancy seal combos to build for FRKZ the ONLY way to play him? Hell no, and as CS play evolves here in America, we're beginning to see that it's just as true here as in Japan (all self-deprecating humor notwithstanding). I for one see no need to emasculate Bang's fire-punch manliness where simply handing him a few tabs of Prozac would suffice (he is a little wound up, after all). But again, we'll see. It's still unclear exactly WHAT they're doing to firepunch wallbounce mechanics from the translation. @Tager Well, nobody really expected any radical changes anyway. I do get a little apprehensive thinking about changes of ANY kind to Collider, though. The move already vastly improved for CS in terms of whiff Collider combos and raw Collider combos, to the point where I can't imagine it getting much better -- but I CAN imagine ASW making it WORSE (intentionally or unintentionally). S-tier Tager would be ludicrous, but it would be nice to see him in A for a little bit. Put the fear of magnetic God into people who got too comfortable with Tager as nothing but a very interesting and tantalizingly fat hitbox. The scrub rage would be erection-inducing, it would be that great. @Makoto She'll be fine without parry loop, I think, as long as she still gains meter at a decent rate. Corner D loops (well, "loop" isn't really the word, but I can't really think of a better term) have plenty of options, and she seems to have plenty of ways to push people to the corner. Probably not S-tier, but she doesn't seem to be in any danger of being low tier. @Valk I have only one-and-a-half words for Wolfman Jack: STAY GDLK. This guy, like Bang, is so cool that he deserves to be S-tier. Cool old butler guy that turns into a fuckin' wolf and does 4k damage for a fat lot of nothing? Mayhaps I've finally found my alternative to Hakumen/Tager/CS Bang (who is my favorite of the three but is going the way of the dinosaurs...which is a shame because I've always loved dinosaurs).

Most awesome: Clark SDM/LDM Ultra Argentine Backbreaker. CLARK SPECIAL is the shit. That crazy sunglasses-at-night motherfucker throws Chang around like he was Choi and doesn't think twice about it. Plus, he's friends with Ralf. Most adorable: Shermie Spiral. Wrap your crotch around their face and watch their lifebar empty. Add knee drop KO and Shermie dance winpose for additional style. Super version is also great, with that sexy-ass suplex. One! Two! Three! :D Most awesome combos (!) afterward: Potemkin Buster, because Po-chop taught us all how awesome juggling after a fast, damaging command throw could be. Tager has some cool shit with the new whiff collider jams, but they're just not quite as jaw-dropping as PB FRC combos. Most hilarious: Hugo, because he's fuckin' Hugo. Belly-flop their shit, clap your hands, lumber across the stage like a majestic redwood with a, um...devastating...command throw? "The bigger I am, the harder they fall!"

This thread should be stickied, IMO. Would probably help deflect a lot of threads about "OMG WHO SHOULD I PLAY???!?!?!??!1" Any chance we'll see updates for the DLC jerks?