Lord Knight

In P4U, the original assumption was that you had to commit to a throw tech. The total time of a whiffed throw is long, and characters get rewarded highly for punishing these whiffs. However, there are defensive techniques you can use to mitigate the risk and change the interaction you're having with the attacking opponent. In the first place, if they don't understand your method of defense, you shouldn't be able to get opened up by your opponent. To illustrate this, I'll use a typical Narukami player with a basic understanding of the game. After blocking Narukami 5A (-2), if they wish to create a throw mixup, they can do the following: 1) Dash throw 2) Dash 5A 2A 5A (continuing pressure) 3) Dash 214A (making the throw tech whiff) You, the player, recognizing this situation, beginning from 1, would input 7C+D > 1 quickly so that: 1) Gets teched 2) Gets blocked 3) Gets air thrown The logic behind the technique is as follows: Narukami 1) Throws are generally 5F start up, with a 16F tech window - the game will essentially let you tech a throw for a period of 21F 2) The string described above - 5A > 2A > 5A works out as 5A (5F + 10F hitstop) > 2A (7F + 10F hitstop) > 5A (5F) if they do it as fast as possible) 3) 214A is 23F start up. So, for the first 5 frames after exiting blockstun from 5A, you block, thus blocking the follow up pressure from Narukami (5A > 2A > 5A). From frame 6 to frame 21, you would jump > throw > return to 1 and block. During this time, you're in the 10F hitstop of 5A, which protects you from getting hit by the low, and you should be back to blocking low by the time he moves on to 2A. Technically, it isn't just lows that beat this (really, doing lows alone won't win), but hitting someone out of jump start up, or their jump completely. I use the sweep into the recording options because it shows that there's not a limit to the amount of times you can do it. The recording I use being: 1) Sweep > dash throw 2) Sweep > dash 5A > dash throw 3) Sweep > dash 5A 2AA 4) Sweep > dash 5A > A Lion This set simulates two situations for throw in a short window of time, but fuzzy jump should beat all of them if done properly.

Yosuke - he's too fast, gets knockdown more often than you, and has 5F 5A so when you do autocombo he can mash and beat your 5A/trade. Narukami - Similar playstyle to Mitsuru with a better neutral game, and doesn't worry about whiffing as much as Mitsuru. Same 5A problem (but his has less range). Aigis - top class damage, mixup is extremely powerful, Mitsuru 2B got nerfed so she's hard to anti-air, and tri-jump going over all your ground attacks make it a rough matchup... but it's probably even anyways. Minazuki - even though the match is even, his reward for hits is much higher than yours on average. You can't mess up against him. S.Lab might be worse too, I don't know how to feel about the DLC characters yet. EDIT: Aren't a couple of those 5A combos CH/FC?

Ggs ctrl. Any Nu players want to play? Toan, can you play me tomorrow?

I'll be on in about an hour if that's ok. Also, I'm really looking for Nu, Yoshiki is in my block and I'd like as much experience as possible. Thanks!

Any Nu or Tager player want to play a long set with me tonight?

Any Nu players in here? I'd very much like to practice this matchup. EDIT: Also, Tager and Taokaka if possible.

Copy/pasted from my notes --- [General Thoughts] Isn't this Jin's worst matchup? He has to do some pretty yolo shit to win. Anyway, the usual patience/solid play works, and Jin isn't scary on defense until he gets 50 meter. [Round Start] Getting away is the safest, because Jin's goal is to touch you anyways. Jin 2D catches backstep/4D at round start. [Fullscreen Neutral] Same as usual, IB full screen projectiles. If they do air swords at the wrong height, you can run under them in wolf. Valk is crazy fast - it's a free approach. All of Jin's tools are midrange (besides the usual yolo ice wave super). If you read a ground ice sword, you can try to fly over it a bunch of ways - air Konig, [j66D] > wait and see, etc. [Midscreen Neutral] Jin wants to hit you, but even catching you blocking is OK. Airborne - Looking at how he moves is very important. If they like jumping around a lot, slip under them and [5B]. If they like to neutral jump or jump away, they are definitely looking for opportunities to JC - you can just wait this out. His JC beats most aerial approaches, but when he's in the air, there isn't much he can do. Some Jin's really like air Hizansen. There is 7F of landing, so you can try to backdash out of range, then move in and punish. Not sure if this hits behind (probably doesn't). Anyway, if he's near you and airborne, depending on height either walk under him or backdash, and react accordingly. Air to air isn't recommended that much. Ground - 5C is his best poke, but he'll use 5D, 2D, and even ice car to try to hit wolf. 2C is his anti air. Stuff like Eisen or 7D will bait 2C. If they are using B DP for anti air, 7D is fine. Again, wolf backstep is amazing and goes a long way in keeping you safe while Jin whiffs moves in your face. [Jin's Back to the Corner] The moment he whiffs a move, get in there. He doesn't have much air to ground besides Hizansen and j236D. If you try to [5B] and he does j236D, you can 4D to evade the ice sword. [Valkenhayn's Back to the Corner] REALLY bad situation, but the usual answers apply. If Jin is really high above you, use Jaeger, and if you have a chance to jump out, use Moonlight. Patience is key. [Jin's Pressure] His goal, more or less. Anyway, even though it would seem like IB really messes up his offense, the risk/return is definitely not in Valkenhayn's favor (to mash). The usual safe escapes - jump, backstep, barrier IB, or CH CA is the best way to get out. A perfect game would be to not get caught blocking at all. 2A - Gatlings into 6A (mashable). It's notable that this move is jump cancellable, and used this way it can really strengthen his offense, since you're generally looking for throw/overhead/frame trap of 2A. 5A - Also jump cancellable, but you'll only see it after jC > j2C (if you blocked the jC). 6A - Way too fast?! But Jin needs 50 meter to combo off it. It's plus on hit, so again, it opens more frame traps. Plus, it feels like strong Jin's can confirm hit/block on RC and then mix up AGAIN, which is really difficult (impossible?) to see. 5B - 2 hit vacuum, -6, cancellable into throw, and can be used to beat TRM. Dangerous. Also, even though it was nerfed, it still beats Valk's backstep.... the good thing is 2B will beat this move 100%. 5C - Jump cancellable. Look for the jump cancel after this move. You can 2C AA into whatever. 2C - Jump cancellable. Usually a frame trap normal. J2C - Massive air normal, that once you block, leads to mixup. J2C > JC/2B/Throw. All 3 options are pretty easy for him to confirm. J2C > 2B isn't technically a string, however. Hizangeki - not actually fast! 8F start up, but the first hit whiffs on crouchers. Fastest Hizangeki that can actually hit someone should be 26F? (4F jump + 8f start up (whiffs) > 2nd hit hits on 22nd F?) Once you get used to the animation, it's pretty easy to react to. However, after any airborne moves, it's 22F, so it's harder to defend against. Usually you see it after 6B, or after j2C (they'll cancel into Hizangeki right before they touch the ground). Throw - Jin has a good throw game. 6B return is massive (as usual), so OS late techs are the safest. Again, OS tech window being reduced hurts, so backstep and jumping are just as good. J236D - Has a vacuum effect, enabling corner crossups. [Valkenhayn's Pressure] Valkenhayn shits on Jin until Jin gets 50 meter (thus getting access to Yukikaze). [5B] - as usual, go into br[JA] or [5C]. Delay [5C] can be DP'd. [5C] - For double sweep, use 1 or 2 dash so that C DP can whiff. D DP will always hit. If [5C] is IB'd and you do [6D > jA], he can 5A and CH you. This loses to double sweep. Use [5C > RC > 5C] for double low with no gap. [5C > 6D] - If Jin has less than 25 meter - [5C > 6D > jA > 44 5C] for low and [5C > 6D > jA 44 jC] for high. You can't get a delayed [JC] but this beats C DP clean. [5C > 6D] Part 2 - If Jin has 25 meter - [5C > 6D > jA~JB 4D > 5C] for low and [5C > 6D > jA~C~4D] for high. Again, you can't get a delayed [C] but this beats D DP. 2C - most reliable normal for instant overhead/low - rising jC or 3C. [setplay] 3C > 236B ender - If Jin has less than 25 meter, use [5A > 44 5B] to chase roll, no tech and beat C DP. Any whiffed [5A] will give you backstep. If 6B comes out, your [5A] will whiff and you can backstep and punish. Also, br[JA 44] should OS C DP as well? Need to test. 3C > 236B Part 2 - 25 meter - [5A > 44 5C] is possible, but really hard(???). Anyway, backstep will make the first hit of D DP whiff. Punish with [5C]. 3C > 236B Part 3 - 50+ meter. Select between A and B - also you can stand in their face and IAD back and react accordingly. Even if Jin jumps, it's not like he's going anywhere. 6C > 66(out of corner) > 236B[D] > [jB > J4C+DD] - more of a trick than anything else, but it's a double overhead that option selects his C and D DP. And of course, JB (or JC) starter leads to good damage.

Copy/pasted from directly from my notes. ---- [General Thoughts] Pretty boring matchup. The nerfed counters, so in the end it's easier to rush him down. As long as I play solid, it'll be fine. [Round Start] Hakumen is pretty limited, right? He only has one start to work with. Not really worth dice rolling unless they have a set pattern. (Valk) - Backstep > wait and see, 4D > wait and see, IAD back jD, 5C, 3C, iad [jAA] (Hakumen) - Backstep, 5C, 4C, 3C, Guren, IAD away [Fullscreen Neutral] Nothing much to note here besides the fact that Hakumen gains meter passively. So, unlike Litchi, unless I'm stalling to rebuild wolf meter, this situation shouldn't happen often. [Midscreen Neutral] Agito - destroys [5B]. Using rising [jA] and doing air Konig should counter it. Air Konig will also beat airdashes in general if done early enough. Confirm with the usual stuff. JC will beat air Konig, J2A will win sometimes. JD - So, once you stop Agito reliably, you have to worry about this. It seems to have some sort of minimum height requirement (need to test???), but at the height they would do airdash Agito, they can do it anyways. Get just outside airdash Agito range > backstep > confirm situation, and react accordingly. Ground normals - You can punish any whiffed held normals (6C, 4C) with Konig on reaction. 5C has 20F of recovery, but the hitbox is too good... or something. If they like jumping > doing X air normal > land 3c, position yourself for the air normals to whiff, and [4D > jB] the 3C. Kishuu - [5C] this. You can't use Konig against this because the move is HB invul from 5-14. General strategy - Pretty much, they are going to hop around to try to gain meter, while keeping Valk out. He has no low that reaches as far as jC, so optimal spacing would be from just outside jC range to just outside his IAD range. When he airdashes, look for Agito/jD. When he's on the ground, it'll depend on how many stars he has, but look for Kishuu and 5C. When approaching him directly, mix up [jC] and [5C] - if he counters (except for Yukikaze), you can 7D/4D appropriately and evade the counter. Brake or dash back in [jB] depending on the opponents habits. [Hakumen's Back to the Corner] Happens more often than not when he has 4 stars or more. Midscreen neutral applies here. [Valkenhayn's Back to the Corner] If he jumps/IAD's - Jaeger. If he's approaching from the ground > sj > dj > moonlight > 7D or 9D. If you use 9D just peace out. If you use 7D, brake, look at Hakumen's icon, and move accordingly. [Hakumen's Pressure] Easier to deal with than CSEX. 2B = -4 5A = +3 but whiffs crouchers, can only really do this off a jump in. 6A = -4 and can ONLY gatling into 6B. It is not special cancellable. His 2A is 7F startup so if you IB this, you can try to escape. 3C is 8F startup, but it's not an issue if you IB jump 6A. 5B = Even. Dangerous normal. 6B = Something like 18F(?). Anyway, you can't really react to it. 6A is the only gatling into this normal, but when done raw it's too fast. Possible to combo on CH. This move is also -4 so IB'ing the second hit is important (and easy after blocking the first hit). Tsubaki - fastest dash Tsubaki this game is 21F (should be able to react), tk Tsubaki is 19F (probably can't realistically react. A standing late throw tech (whatever method, as long as it's not raw B+C) should deal with this. Zantetsu - same usual netplay shit. Kishuu - Goes through CA, burst. Kishuu > Enma is FAST!!! But, it's only jump cancellable, so no worries. Renka - Move that kind of screws IB timing for some reason (I'm bad). +1. Again, barrier helps with this. Agito - They'll use dash Agito and IAD Agito for shenanigans. While I don't feel like it's "ambiguous" per se, it does give him a falling normal, that on stand guard would give him 5A into whatever. After blocking, jump IB or backstep. Summary - really, most of what he has is 2A > try to throw you/TRM you or catch whatever method you want to use to disrespect. Pay attention to his stars and be patient! And watch out for 6B! Barrier IB >>>> [Valkenhayn's Pressure] The usual shit. It's worth noting that it's way too hard to 4D/7D [JA] if he counters. Also, he can't counter [jA] after [5C] unless he does Yukikaze, or IB's [5C]. As usual, [5C > brake 5C] stops this. Brake Himmel has extra merit vs him as well. [setplay] If Hakumen has less than 4 Stars - br[JA]. No reason to do ANYTHING ELSE. Spaced properly, Hotaru should whiff, 2D loses, and all counters lose since they don't have 1st frame catch. If Hakumen has more than 4 Stars - need to mixups br[JA], [5C], 3C, rising [JC], and throws. Yukikaze alone legitimizes all his other options. If you don't feel like dice rolling, stand directly in his face (where you could do all of the above stuff), and then backstep/walk away/IAD away. When they start doing wake up jump, it opens up doing meaty lows again. [5C] - If he has less than 4 stars, a spaced [5C] > 4D will make counter whiff, and you'll only get hit by the 2nd hit of 6B if he decides to do it. If you're point blank, 7D. Both hits of 6B will hit. [jC] - It's kind of hard to meaty this, but spaced properly it'll make Hotaru whiff too.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4740-cse-litchi-vs-bang/#entry475510 Outside of some small changes to his frame data, gatlings and Litchi's overall gameplan, this should still be applicable.

Always end corner combos with 6C vs Kagura whenever you can. Sealing his DP/super is too worth it.

Hi I'm coming to Montreal this weekend!!!!

im pretty sure you can get close to 9000 dmg off 6d ct, but you need OD3

sp is not that important for mitsuru

midscreen: 5b[m] > 5c(2) > 3c > 623d 5b[m] > 2c > 4d 5b[m] > 5c(2) > 3c > 2d corner xx > 2c[m] > 6d > 236b > 624a > a > b > {d} > 236c > 6d > 5b > 6c(1) > 421d > jb > dj jBCD > falling small delay jC > slide 6a > kokushi musou

mm. ill add to this. 5A, jA, jC, 2D are all good general neutral tools. you have to discourage dash up 2b's and stuff from him. 2b admittedly sucks. when he uses run and cancels into moonsault, weaker yosuke players will moonsault towards you. airthrow that. others will either moonsault away and use kunai or moonsault away and do nothing. wait for him to land and punish with A droit > link into 5AA crouching confirm. if you wait for him to land, there is no way he can fake you out with j2C/D or anything. in neutral, try your best to not get hit by random kunai - if you can avoid this, you can significantly reduce the amount of random damage you take. depending on your position, you'll need to use SB or A droit. link with 5AA > crouch confirm. 2a is an ok idea against him for sweep, but if you whiff 2a you'll get hit. if you read sweep, backstep. itll make his sweep whiff and you can punish with a crouching confirm. also in neutral you can use jB or 2a, but again, he can punish your 2a

actually, we'll have no idea what will actually work into we see a completed version of the game :/

i dont think it adds more than 1000, raw is like 2k?

I fucking love this tournament cottam

i will go

yes, you need to do held 4b > b droit

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Frame_Data_(Litchi_BBCSE)#Revolver_Action_Table gatlings

first off, bufula is amazing ok, and should not be overlooked. sweep > c bufula usually happens because the mitsuru dropped a combo. throw > sb bufula is only legit on throw CH b droit > d bufula ender in the corner is extremely powerful. the opponent can't late tech or roll and is forced to take an unseeable high/low. 5c is quite a good pressure tool, and it's use varies depending on when you use it in your strings. you cant get a safe droit off 5c.

it's kikuchiyo vs ea

looks about as good as can be without being able to test anything the jp litchi cp wiki is apparently "down until further notice" :/

not worth to do unless you get 6d, 6b or 3c starter