VR-Raiden

Something I could see being useful for healing Koromaru: midscreen CH B+D > 2A+B > 214B or 214A+B Seems impossible to punish, I tried lots of fast long range stuff. Might be disadvantage on 214B, but it doesn't seem like much. Shouldn't be limited to CH B+D starter either, any time you could land a sweep and it should work.

So on oki, I've been way over-complicating things, you can do everything I was looking for from a properly spaced and timed meaty 214C. Saw it in a vid and actually looked at it in more detail. The only real drawback is it requires cutting combos short. The problem with 236C/D oki that I was looking at is when they block it, Koromaru has recovery time so you're combo and more importantly pressure after can't use him right away. 236C+D doesn't have the Koromaru recovery but that costs meter so not always worth it. Koromaru doesn't do the recovery animation from 214C. Example combo: 2A > 2B > (5B) > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A/B > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C, 2292-2612 depending on if you use 5B or A/B add-on (it's more annoying with B but more damage) Timed properly, 214C will be meaty whether they delay tech or not. They can't roll, they can't upback. Dash jump immediately upon recovering from 236B->A, while blocking to block immediate tech DP. Come down with any jump move, land 2A, or delay airdash. They can't delay tech long enough to avoid a safe jump-in. You can even get the 2A to be airtight if they don't IB the 214C. Delay airdash always leaves a gap but since Ken's airdash is short you can block a DP from your airdash if you don't press anything. It seemed like the only hole was that if they get absolute max delay on their tech they could DP a land 2A. But if they miss the window to delay tech, they do the slow wake-up and have to block. (tested on Mitsuru, Narukami so far) I'll make a clean post about it with combos from different starters in the Oki/Mixups/Gimmicks thread tomorrow. The other stuff I was looking at before might still have use somewhere, but this is way easier and does a lot of the same things.

Worth noting about Gigantic Impact (236A/B->A/B), the SB version has the persona disappear significantly faster than A or B versions, making it pretty hard to hit in comparison. Some other properties while I'm at it: A: 800 damage. Floor splat on hit (dunno if that's the proper term). Fatal Counters. High floor bounce on Fatal Counter. Fastest startup. B: 1400 damage. Floor bounce on hit. Fatal Counters. High floor bounce on Fatal Counter. Slowest startup. SB: 1600 damage. Floor bounce on hit. Fatal Counters. High floor bounce on Fatal Counter. Faster than B, slower than A. Also on Thunder Reign and Ultimate Cross, the B versions are slower than A or SB versions. Both can be rolled after flash, so in reality they are probably 4+3 startup, or 3+4, or something like that.

What's your point? If you did, congratulations. Some people like seeing video confirmation of things. A post with links of examples is a lot more helpful than one like this.

After seeing more Shadow Ken it's probably mainly useful for his combos, not so much regular as far as I can tell. Can anyone check, or if you already know, is it possible to roll 236236A/A+B after flash? EDIT: You can roll 236236A/A+B. If you aren't close enough you end up getting hit behind Ken though.

Just noticed this from a few days ago, Shadow Ken CMV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjhBJiqHH9s

I'm getting 236236A/A+B and 214214A/A+B to be 7f. They punish Narukami 236A(-5) on IB, but do not punish Narukami 214A(-4) on IB. B+D is 15f. Punishes Narukami 214C+D(-13) on IB, not S.Mitsuru 5AAA(-14) on normal block. Guard Cancel Attack is somewhere bettwen -19 and -22 on block. Ken 236A+B(19f) punishes on normal block, 236B(25f) does not punish on IB. Knocks down on CH. Opponent can air tech on normal hit (may even be advantage if they forward tech at you). This is assuming those values are right in the other wikis, they seem to be at least.

It came up in Skype chat, so I looked at punishing gears super. Gears will destroy Koromaru if Ken isn't in contact with the gears. If he is, Koro only takes a few of the hits. It's best to just 5D him out after flash if you're able. Midscreen: after flash > jump/super jump over (roll works too from very close) > FC 236B (or other CH punish) after flash > IK Back to corner: after flash > delay B+D (trades on the way down) > 2A pick up combo after flash > delay 214214B (only 1 spear version, whether you put Koromaru away or not) after flash > IK Couldn't find a way to outlast it in the air with her back to corner. If you would die from the trade B+D, or don't have meter for 214214B, probably best to just jump back and avoid it. I was able to get FC 236B once after jumping behind it, but the 2nd hit didn't reach to pull in.

I was getting 6 til I positioned them literally on top of Koromaru, it's a pretty small area that gets the full 10 hits. It's interesting, wonder if it's applicable somewhere.

Cool looking forward to it. There are some combo vids with him in the video thread first post, so far I don't see him being that good unfortunately but it's still early. On this stuff, I made a quick vid demonstrating it, along with some new things. So depending on the combo, you might not be able to time j.2B such that after they block 236C/D, it hits roll and upback grounded, so they have the roll option. You can OS to throw their roll, but timing is extremely specific otherwise your throw can get DP'd. You want to do it as late as possible but not so late that throw comes out after your j.2B connects. I've been finding combos that go into this oki from different starters. I noticed something unfortunate about 236C/D just now, after it's blocked Koromaru has to retreat back for a little bit. That makes it so after a hit or block with this oki, you can't use Koromaru immediately, so combos and pressure following it will have to be modified accordingly. This can be mitigated with 236C+D however, since Koromaru stays in place and is usable immediately after it's blocked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPqZMctWTBY

Sounds cool, I found something similar before but I don't think I was as high up so Koromaru wasn't off screen. Have you looked at how it handles delay techs? I feel the need to make another vid myself on the stuff from my last post, it's a wall of text. also there is a thread for this kind of thing now if people want to start using it, the first post will eventually collect all useful setups like this. If you already posted something in here, you're welcome to post about it again in there if it doesn't get updated with the info. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9429-p4au-ken-amada-okizememixupsgimmicks-thread/

I tested all versions since I wasn't sure either myself. C version is always 1 hit at 1800 damage. D version is more hits depending on how close to Koromaru they are. Minimum of 2 hits at 1500 damage, max of 10 at 3250 damage (wow). EX version is like D version but recovers much faster. All versions seem to have the same startup.

This thread exists to gather and discuss any ways to hit people in pressure or after knockdowns, so they aren't lost in the clutter of Gameplay Discussion.If you have okizeme, mixups, or gimmicks, share them in here with an explanation of how/why it can work.It helps to share how the opponent can avoid it as well.This post will be updated to compile all useful info. Gigantic Impact A > meaty Getsu-ei C Okizeme Collapsed: 236A/B->A > meaty 214C oki: Summary - Combo to 236A/B->A, input 214C quickly, dash jump while blocking, come down on the opponent with high/low/delay airdash mixup. Details - Koromaru must be available for use at the proper spacing to execute this oki effectively. Example combos for setting this up correctly are listed below. - 214C should connect on the frame the opponent wakes up (meaty) after immediate teching. Opponents inputting Evasive Action will be hit out of it, and opponents holding upback will be hit grounded out of jump startup. - 214C can only be avoided by delaying the absolute maximum amount before teching, which may be difficult to time consistently. - 214C will still be meaty if the opponent delays too long and the automatic late wake-up starts. - If the opponent immediate techs into a reversal, you will block it in the air from your dash jump. - Following this oki, you are unable to use Koromaru for a brief period of time if they blocked 214C, so that must be taken into account for pressure and combos. Options - Dash jump deep j.A/j.B/j.2B High. No gap after blocked 214C. j.B is the strongest starter, but susceptible to techs into reversals since you must start it higher in air. j.A is easiest to make safe. All are susceptible to slight delay tech into reversal. - Dash jump j.A(2) High for 2 hits. No gap after blocked 214C. j.A done high enough will allow the second hit to come out for a second high hit. Susceptible to immediate or slight delay tech into reversal. - Dash jump j.A(1) > j.B(land cancel) > 2A High for 1 hit then low. Gap after blocked j.A(1). Should be done at a height where j.A(2) would connect to trick the opponent into thinking a second high hit is coming. Susceptible to immediate or slight delay tech into reversal, and reversal after blocked j.A(1). - Dash jump land 2A Low. No gap after blocked 214C with perfect timing. Land cancelling a j.B/j.2B can make it potentially trickier. Susceptible to max delay tech into reversal. - Dash jump land 2B Low. Gap after blocked 214C. Slower than 2A so it gives more time to react or reversal, but more reward on hit. Land cancelling a j.B/j.2B can make it potentially trickier. Susceptible to max delay tech into reversal, and reversal after blocked 214C. - Dash jump close-to-ground airdash j.A/j.B/j.2B High(fake low). Gap on normal block. Catches the opponent thinking you landed into a low. j.B is slowest but most rewarding on hit. Susceptible to reversal after blocked 214C, but most reversals can be blocked if you airdash without attacking. Combos - 2A > 2B > (5B) > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A/B > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C 2292-2612 damage. Easier with ->A but slightly less damage. - 5A > 2B/5B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A/B > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C 2526-2872 damage. - CH B+D > 2A+B > 236A->A/B > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C 2487-2687 damage. - Throw > dash 5B > 236A > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C 1998 damage. - CH Air Throw > 5B > 236A > 236C > 236B->A > meaty 214C 2318 damage. - far 5B > 236A(input 236D on 1st hit) > 236D hits > 236B > 2B > nj.B(input 236C) > j.2B > 236C hits > 236A->A > meaty 214C 2939 damage. - Combo 7 ... Character Specific Notes-

Slightly slower than A version (Ken 5A clash > neutral jump > 236A vs 236A+B upon landing, 236A won). Faster than B version.More hitstun than either version (236A+B > 5A combos on normal hit). Significantly plus on block (jump height test).

I need to test with these myself, but it looks like pretty standard stuff off a j.2B knockdown. It's susceptible to DP (except maybe the roll) and the high option (AoA) is going to be reactable in the long run, there isn't really a high-low mixup here. But blocked AoA(OMC) does give some options. Delay teching should also be considered, but if you're grounded you could potentially react and covert to another knockdown. That's something I was looking at extensively today, but from jump-in oki after j.2B. Collapsed: oki tests: In an effort to find decent high-low mixup while at the same time covering delay tech, this is what I've been looking at lately. I hope this doesn't get too long winded, there's a bit to it, but I'm curious how others think it looks compared to his other options. This is all tested on Mitsuru. And lots of theory fighter here so bear with me. After a j.2B > land knockdown, you never have enough time to safejump from what I can tell. That's partly why I started out looking at real safejumps off j.2B jump cancel. However, that limits your high low options since you don't have access to air options anymore. So I started looking more closely and doing makeshift "safejumps" with j.2B > 236C/D > land > briefly step forward > forward jump while blocking > deep jump-in. With the proper height j.2B hit, timing of 236D, and timing of your jump, you can "safejump" this way. These are all the scenarios I looked at. Combo used for testing: 5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236C > 236B > 2B > fj.B > j.2B > meaty 236D (2831/2467) (make sure to have 236D come out immediately following j.2B so it hits delay tech) air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and DP > you block their DP. - You haven't input any attacks in air by the time DP connects if timed right. The brief step forward makes it so you're higher up when they're able to DP immediately after teching. air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > they DP while you deep j.B/j.2B and it safejumps. - You want this gap here to discourage DP after blocking 236C/D. The best timing will hit the opponent holding upback on ground, and hit roll attempt. If you want it airtight after 236C/D, you can do deep j.A or remove the brief step forward before the initial jump. Now having established you can block their DP and hit upback/roll after they block 236C/D, you can theoretically attempt the following: air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > you land 2A/2B for a low hit. - The low option, they can DP/jump/roll it but you have the above safejump option to discourage those. Note the brief step forward is optional since you aren't pressing anything in air anyway, you block the entire way down. Can make this potentially trickier by land cancelling j.2B (j.2B has very noticeable animation). air hit j.2B > input 236C/D > land, brief step forward (optional) > forward jump while holding back > they immediate tech and block > 236C/D is blocked > airdash right before landing > j.A/j.B/j.2B. - The fake-low (high) option. They can DP/jump/roll it the same way as the low. j.A hits fastest, j.B slowest. j.2B probably nets most reward. As for delay teching, the 236C/D will OTG if they attempt to delay tech at all when timed correctly. It seems difficult to react to whether or not they delay teched when going for your chosen jump-in option. But these are some scenarios that can work whether you react to them getting OTG'd or not, tested with 236D. "safejump" j.2B option: - j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D causing another knockdown. Following that, you can meaty 236C into either ground oki or meaty 236C into j.2B jump cancel safejump stuff. If they still stay down and take the OTG 236C, there doesn't seem to be anything you can do and they air tech immediately, so might be wise to delay, do 236D instead, or wait until they get up to do dog moves. Depends on if they like to delay tech twice or not. "safejump" j.B option: - j.B will combo after the OTG 236D and can be followed up with dash DP to bring them to corner, and the option to super cancel that for more damage is there. Probably difficult to hit confirm this, and whiffing DP is the worst thing you can possibly do, so maybe not that practical. empty jump 2B option: - 2nd hit of 2B combos after OTG 236D which leads to instant j.2B re-knockdown. This only works off better starters and if you didn't take the brief step forward before the initial jump. Following j.2B you can go for low airdash stuff if you want. delay airdash j.2B option: - The airdash j.2B will combo after the OTG 236D and re-knockdown. Some other interesting thing here, if you dash jump airturn after j.2B you can land on the other side and do the same things. EDIT: another combo you can set this stuff up with, 5A/2A > 2B > 5C > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > forward super jump falling j.2B > meaty 236C (2949/2631) also a funny crossup, running short hop over crouchers to crossup 2C > j.A. input as run 2C~2A+C, you have to get a little momentum going to get over.

There is actually a gap in 5AA, even on normal block, which was surprising to me. The only string of normals with no gap outside IBing is 5A/2A > 2B I think. But like PandaKingEX suggests, gaps aren't necessarily a bad thing since it's one of the main ways to hit people, as long as you keep their reversal options in mind. Blockstrings are something I still need to look at in depth. Actually I think 2B > 5B is airtight too, but would need to double check.

Been messing with another route which borrows pretty much those side swap combo ideas, I like this route because it can easily be converted to a damage ender by replacing 214C with 236D. You can also opt for instant j.2B after the 236D and go for the airdash method (still haven't gotten that to safejump but didn't try for long today). 5A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B->B > 214C > walk forward jump > falling j.2B(forward jump cancel) safejump j.B = 3131 from 2A it does 2739 Depeding on how many frames you walk forward before jumping into j.2B, you will either land in front or behind after the forward jump cancel. Quick vid showing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6WzYjcPzk On fuzzy j.2B, I found ways to combo off it meterlessly. Do 214C as you fall, then it will combo off the fuzzy j.2B and you can land 5A. From AoA, do the OMC as 214A+B+C so 214C comes out and you can follow up the same way. Quick vid showing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYt49_JCYLQ

Ok I found the timing, unfortunately in doing so I also found that this high 236B hit seems character specific. I tried the same combo on Mitsuru and Yosuke and the 2nd hit of 236B missed. Seems to depend on their air hurtbox a lot. At least Yu is one of the ones it works on (if not only) since there is a lot of benefit to using it on him theoretically. I got this to work from 5A and 2A starter. The better the starter, the more damage you lose by going for the safejump most likely. So now we have these which work on at least Yu: Throw > dash 5B > 236A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 1829 2A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 2123 5A > 2B > 5C > 2A+B > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 2452 4AAA > 236A->A > 236D > 236B > neutral safejump j.B = 1756 (meter gain option, 37 vs 32 from first attack, probably not worth it) Worth noting that for the safejump j.B to be actually meaty you need to do it higher up than you might think, otherwise they can roll it, or jump back and get hit on the way up. That lead me to test roll punishing though like in the airdash safejump setup. From what I found with neutral safejumps just now I'm betting they can upback and get hit by j.B in the air, but haven't gone back to testing this one yet. However if they roll, found you can do a very easy option-select. Just press 5B or 2B right after you input j.B, it comes out if they roll and CH punishes, doesn't come out if they blocked.

Alright thanks I'll try it again. I want to know if we can get that ender from other combos, the 5A one in my last post I don't think the 236B hits them high enough. It's definitely strongest mixup-wise. Since there isn't realllly a mixup to meaty high or empty low, they can just switch to low block upon the delay they notice by not blocking a high. Empty throw gets that but they can break with quick reactions. It can still open them up, but if they're on point, having delay airdash into high makes it actually a mixup. That plus j.B/j.2B > fuzzy j.2B or j.B/j.2B > 2A/2B on tall characters.

Yeah it's probably pretty easy to confirm they rolled and CH 5B punish or something. As long as they cant upback, which I'm sure they can't, it should be fine. I'll try that setup more when I get home today. On that note I think it will be best to time 236D on these as late as possible such that you're jump-in or low combos to the first hit of 236D. That gives a ton of time to convert to a combo on hit, pressure on block, and gives most advantage if they delay teched the safejump.

Can you or someone double check the first one? Last night I was finding that for 236B > neutral jump ones like that, Narukami could actually DP them, but there was a timing where it would be safe. So it seemed like if he got it out as fast as possible it didn't work. I hope I'm just messing up because I really want a plain jump safejump to work. It sounds like it isn't hitting truly meaty, I've run into stuff like that before. That's the only way I could see it not hitting a roll.

I like this, it's something like I was trying to find, but I can't get it to safejump. Is the attack out of the airdash delayed as much as possible? Also finding getting the last j.2B pretty annoying. I modified it to have 3 j.A hits on the last part to help with that but I'm still not getting airdash attacks to safejump. For reference that combo does 3206. I'm looking at simpler options, they are much more consistent for me but less damage and corner carry. 5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > walk forwardjump j.B > j.2C > forward jump cancel > j.B safejump does 3092 5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B > j.A(1) > j.B > j.2B > foward jump cancel j.B crossup safejump does 2882, does less slightly but it creates a sandwich if you 236D while jumping over making for better confirms/pressure? 5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > neutral jump j.B safejump does 2167, but gives more options (delay airdash, fuzzy j.2B) (This one needs double checking, I'm not getting it to actually safejump now...) I wanna flesh this out with the help of others, it's pretty good looking to me. You get a meaty high which discourages DP, which can be coupled with empty 2A/2B or j.A(1) whiff cancel 2A/2B, and if they delay tech to avoid that you're still plus if you did 236D. Add in crossup Koromaru attacks, AoA, AoA(OMC), and throw stuff in there and it's a lot of options. EDIT: Addendum on the 2nd one, 5A > 2B > 5C > 2AB > 236A > 236C > 236B > 2B > j.A(1) > j.B > j.2B > foward jump cancel j.B crossup safejump If they start delay teching every time after j.2B to avoid the safejump, you can do 236D during j.2B and immediate OTG 2A upon landing, it will combo into 236D which you can followup with dash j.B > j.2B > backjump cancel j.B safejump. If they delay at all, the 2A will OTG. Does 3295 with the OTG add on. EDIT2: This route works off throw, Throw > dash 5B > 236A > 236C > 236B->B > 214C > walk forwardjump > j.2B > forward jump cancel > j.B safejump 2413 EDIT3: Unrelated, experimented a bit more with fuzzy j.2B. deep j.2B blocked > forward jump cancel j.2B(OMC) hit (2C comes out) > j.B hit (2C hits) > j.A works on Yu, Yosuke, Mitsuru, Ken. On Yu you can even do j.2B for the 3rd hit and it fuzzies after the initial fuzzy if they blocked that then switched for whatever reason.

Watched the vid, yeah that's essentially what I was doing. I've been trying to optimize combos into ending with a safejump that lands you close enough to empty 2A for a low. Another route I found that works: 4AAA > 236A > 236D > 236B->B > 214C > (dash) j.2B (JC) > safejump+236D adding in 236D as you jump cancel seems good since it makes them block if they delay tech, and leaves you advantage. Basically it looks to me like these safejumps add an extra layer to the usual oki. If it's at the cost of a little damage I can see them totally being worth it. Only problem is you can't do delay airdash stuff or fuzzy off a jump cancelled j.2B safejump, but from that just neutral jump setup you should be able to. oh while I'm at it, j.A can hit twice on stand blocking, so from this you can do something similar to Narukami j.B. j.A(1) > j.B(cancelled by landing) > 2A for 1 high hit into low instead of 2 high hits.

Thanks, I wanted to mention that we should follow the format so there's less editing to do later. First bullet should explain strictly uses of the move in matches. And some moves just got rid of the bullet points altogether. It's not a huge deal since we're still learning the character and can edit when we know more, but wanted to point it out. I'd have to wait til tonight to see specifically which moves need fixing. But thanks again for the info on there so far. Might as well share one thing I looked at last night incase others can expand on it. Corner AoA > delayed input 214C/D > AoA blocked > OMC j.2B blocked > forward jump cancel j.2B (fuzzy) > 214C/D hits > land 2A. Didn't learn a combo yet but I imagine you could get pretty standard stuff following the 2A. Only tested on Yu so far but probably works on Yosuke, Mitsuru, Ken as well. Seemed to combo fine if the first j.2B hit too, but had issues if they didn't block AoA. EDIT: Oh thanks Pen_Ninja, a lot of my time last night was exploring j.2B jump cancel safejumps+236D and how to end combos into it. I like how it looks so far. Will check out the vid tonight.