Assassinine

Whenever Terumi bows, he gets no oki, his opponent can roll for free.

You dont have to see through the mixup. The low version cant be followed up with a combo and Terumi has such a long recovery that you can roll out of the corner. Just block high whenever you see a superflash and every outcome is more favorable than getting hit by the overhead. The Bullet comparison doesnt even come close, because both 6D and 2D are positive on block and lead to 5-6K. Comparison to Bullet would make more sense if 2D bounced them out of the corner and you couldnt follow up, so you lost corner oki, didnt get a level of heat up back, and did under 3k damage. The opponent would simply block high to avoid eating 6k, and if bullet did the low she would be throwing her whole gameplan under the bus by putting herself in the corner and losing all her levels, and not even getting high damage in return.

Heat cooldown prevents that Considering high orochi is an S starter, low orochi would also be an S starter if it was combo-able. You can make back 26 meter without losing oki from high orochi, in my experience. Knowing Arcsys, low orochi is probably going to be an S starter anyway

Well the thing is 5C RC mixups require you to plan ahead, while 6C RC mixups can be used as a backup plan if your original mixup plan didnt work and you are getting pushed out. 6C can also just be thrown out in neutral with meter, if it hits you rapid and get 3k midscreen and recover half the meter spent, if it counter-hits you OD and get 6k+. On block you can RC and apply 3 way mixup. EDIT: to clarify, i compare orochi mixup to 6C mixup simply because they are both available from long range attacks, 5C RC mixup beats them both. Theres no doubt that orochi will be a forced 50/50 guess. Most of the problem stems from the fact that with the stupid bow animation that ASW is so fond of, you are essentially paying 50 meter to put yourself in the corner with the low version. If you get hit by the high version in the corner, you take 3750 damage, Terumi gets half his meter back, and corner oki. If you get hit by the low version, you will likely take around ~2500 damage, and Terumi politely allows you to roll past him because hes such a gentleman. If you autoblock high at the flash, every outcome is favorable in some way, by either blocking a high attempt, getting hit low and escaping the corner, or forcing Terumi to blow 100 meter to RC to prevent you from rolling out, and getting what is likely going to be high-3000s for damage, on a 100 meter investment. Hell, if you are cornered and Terumi uses orochi mixup without 100 meter to RC, you can simply block high knowing that if he hits you with the low you escape the corner for free. Midscreen high orochi is looking like it will give Terumi time to sprint up to his opponent, while low orochi will be bowing as they tech, resetting to neutral, so autoblocking high is the best option in any scenario where getting hit by the low wont outright kill you. The only way this wont be the case is if low orochi hits disgustingly hard to make people fear it.

6C RC mixup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA65-JnC4a0

If we are banking 50 meter on a 1-shot mixup with -no options on block, negative on block -that cant be followed up midscreen, with the requirement to RC to followup the low version -allows your opponent to roll out of the corner if you dont RC the low version i dont think its too much to ask for it to actually give good reward on hit. If Orochi 50/50 is not a rewarding mixup, then there is no reason to use it over 6C RC mixup. 6C RC is much more flexible, with more mixup options, and if your mixup is defended you still have control, especially with the buff to 6B which will speed up his throw setups and make his pressure resets tighter. Currently Terumi can get 3750 damage from raw overhead orochi in the corner and recoup 26 meter while keeping oki, this is actually respectable and i have no complaints. My worry is that the low version cant be followed up without rapid, and because of the stupid bow he does the opponent can roll past you before you recover, which means if you land a low mixup you just put yourself in the corner

Well, combos from the overhead version will likely be corner only. From a few minutes of tinkering, the best i can come up with: 63214B, 22C (lv 2), 6D oki for 3753 damage, -24 net meter If you dont care about having abyssmal oki, you can do 63214B, 2C 5C 3C 6D 236D for 3771 for -7 meter, optional orochi ender for oki, 4432 dmg, -57 meter I really wish they would just fix his 236D's recovery so that he could actually use it as a practical combo ender in the corner.

Considering that you are committing 50 meter to a mixup that will leave you at disadvantage on block, i would certainly hope that it would lead to good damage on a successful hit. This is doubly true if one of the options requires RC to combo. Compare it to 6C RC mixup, which gets more than just 2 mixup options, allows you to recoup most if not all of the meter spent on a successful mixup, and most of your mixup options leave you some follow-through options in the event they are properly defended.

B orochi is an S starter, so its likely (but not guarunteed) that A orochi will also be an S starter, so 100 meter to RC A orochi for a low mixup that will likely result in mediocre damage (for 100 meter at least) and little to no meter return is not going to be a profitable investment. I would sooner spend that meter on 6C RC into high/low/throw mixups than consider doing low orochi rapid. If however both versions became N starter, i could get behind the idea of rapid cancelling the A version.

That untechable time looked about the same as the rest of the supers where he bows. I rewatched the clip where he does it, and paused immediately as hakumen teched, Terumi was still recovering from the bow. This means that not only will you not get a combo for it, but the opponent can roll past you. If they do, at best you might catch them with 2A but only after they pass you, forcing you to use another 50 meter on messenga (if you even have meter left) to side-swap them back. Another scenario, you may not be able to catch their roll at all and your only option is to start pressure with your back to the corner. This, combined with the lack of extra kicks in the super leads me to believe it doesnt do much damage at all, but who knows with ASW, it might do 3k on its own for all we know. Personally if its anything less than 2500 ill probably never use it considering the inability to combo from it and the disadvantageous oki situation it results in. I would rather do an RC mixup that leads into 6D oki.

I was under the assumption that you only get the bonus proration if you do at least level 2, am i mistaken? Is there a relatively complete set of frame data anywhere? I check the Dustloop Wiki quite often and am usually left with disappointment.

With invincibility on Orochi, and having a high/low option, does this mean we could potentially perform mixup on the opponent on our own wakeup? "Oh you just finished performing a combo? Heres a 50/50 reversal mixup" *Trollface Probably too good to be true, but the concept amuses me. It seems like a lot of the new cancel windows are designed to work with the new 214214D, but i dont see why you would ever want to use 214214D in those situations when you can just do Fuuenjin and get better screen position and damage. What could we possibly do with a 22c(first hit) super cancel window?

Thats not what i was taking issue with though. 5B stagger and the options it gives is quite good, as is to be expected of any normal borrowed from Hazama. What i take issue with is that he was showing Azrael get fatal countered multiple times doing dumb stuff like 2A to try to poke out, when he could easily 5A on reaction and beat 6B every time. It just seems dishonest to display that, as if he didnt even bother to check what the opponents options are, and instead just went "herp derp look how unbeatable this move is".

I cant read runes but that first part of the video seems rather dishonest to me. Anything into 6B is a pretty large gap that is much easier to disrespect than it appears. Im pretty sure Azrael could have just 5A his way out, maybe even 5B.

^ What was said above sums up pretty much everything i could say about his supposedly "strong pressure" This is sound logic until you consider the context of Terumi's character design. Do you think that a character designed with twice as many supers than specials is just fine being incapable of using said supers without throwing the rest of his gameplan under the bus? I dont think its too much to ask to get bare basic 2A oki after a super ender. Noel can do double fenrir and get better damage AND oki than Terumi's Fuuenjin, which is supposed to be the holy grail of super enders. I do in fact spend most of my meter on RCs, simply because his massive arsenal of supers is terrible. Messenga is only useful for N starters midscreen or hard reads against zoners. Burensen gives barely any damage and gives weaker oki than simply ending with 6D jump vortex, OD Burensen allows the opponent to roll past him before he recovers. Renshoga is borderline useless, with Messenga being infinitely more efficient for anything but a midscreen forward throw combo. Fuuenjin leaves you with 0 meter against an opponent who can freely roll past and corner you. Zanrouga is a very schizophrenic super counter, often guard pointing moves its strong against without triggering the counter, to say nothing of the moves it legitimately loses to. Soutenjin is only useful for combos in overdrive, but otherwise is a decent defensive tool. Fixing the negative oki issues with 236D, OD 63214B, and 632146D would vicariously improve some of his problem areas, by allowing him to reap the full benefit of his drive, and using that extra meter to cover the gaps in his gameplan or for pumping up his damage. Being able to get that extra 20 meter per combo with 236D without losing corner would make the necessity to RC to maintain pressure and perform mixup much more bearable, and would make this soon to be 50/50 superflash mixup somewhat less of a gimmick as he would be getting more meter to fuel his thirst.

It largely depends on the starter. In corner: j.2D overhead is around 2600 meterless. 2B low is around 2900 meterless. Throw is around 3500 meterless. 214D command throw is 1500 meterless. 63214B can be used to get ~600 extra damage on a combo for 50 meter, kind of lackluster, but keeps the corner. Most of his other potential super enders allow the opponent to roll past you while you are recovering. For example, using 632146D to dump 100 meter into a j.2D combo will boost it up to 4400 damage, but the opponent can simply roll past you while you are recovering, putting yourself in the corner. The only other super you can use in the corner that doesnt leave you in a disadvantageous position is OD Soutenjin. OD combos basically require an N starter, which means j.2D and throw are pretty much out of the question for this (j.2D is workable if you commit to cOD as soon as it connects i guess). The damage isnt extremely bad, but actually landing a hit is frustrating due inability to TRM, short range lows and the overhead only chaining from 5C or 2C, which due to pushback makes it very difficult to use a low afterward. Terumi's Crush Trigger is a laughably bad -7 on block. Its rather easy to just autopilot defense against Terumi with 1ABC OS, auto-blocking low until you see 5C/2C, then blocking high. Tbh i think if 236D, 632146D, and OD 63214B pushed him just a bit further from the corner on hit, such that a rolling opponent wouldnt pass him while hes still recovering, he would be a bit better off. He could actually do combo routes that maximize meter gain without losing the corner, and use that meter to make his mixup workable or maximize reward from landing hits without giving up the corner.

Said resets are one-time gimmicks at best, and free pressure / punish for the opponent at worst. I dont think its asking much to get somewhat of a buff to Terumi's mixup. His throw range is so short that its difficult to keep your opponent honest with TRM (a single dash buffered 2A barrier blocked with 1ABC = whiffed throw if you try to TRM throw). His only overhead is rather easy to block, and is only an S starter, so the reward is low even when you do land it. This isnt to say that Terumi needs ultra godlike mixup, but a throw with ~1 pixel range and an overhead that only can be used from C normals and is the equivalent of a 2A starter for combos leaves something to be desired. The "well he gets tons of meter to prop up his game" argument i see used a lot partially backfires because 236D cannot be used in the corner. If Terumi uses 236D in the corner, the opponent can roll out of the corner for free, as they recover faster than Terumi does. As a result, if you want bare basic corner oki as Terumi, you have to omit 236D and lose about 20 heat per combo. This is also true of 632146D, OD 632146D, and OD 63214B, which means if Terumi tries to maximize damage on a confirm, his opponent can then roll out of the corner for free. In the corner you are essentially punished for trying to get meter, or punished for using said meter. I think its a bit silly that after having to make big compromises just to keep the opponent in place, that you then have to deal with not only poor mixup, but poor mixup that gives lackluster reward (and dumping meter to maximize that reward then allows your opponent to roll out for free). Its almost insulting that Terumi's primary gimmick, the acquisition and use of massive amounts of meter, is undermined by this terrible design flaw.

Burensen needs a starter rating buff and both versions need to be neutral or plus on block if they want us to use superflash mixup. VS starter for 50 meter is pitiful. We need N starter if we want to make back our meter investment.

Is that all they are, alternate versions of what we have, rather than new DDs entirely? If they do give us a silly 50/50 superflash mixup and expect us to use it, i hope they at least make Burensen a better starter. I think its Very Short right now, cant even recover much of the meter spent, let alone get good damage.

I dont know if this was already known or not, but i just found something interesting. Normals that cannot be overdrive cancelled will buffer the overdrive input for as long as you hold the button. However, if you aren't extremely precise you can accidentally get a rapid cancel instead, so this is much safer if done using a 1-button macro. Normals that can be cancelled into other attacks seem to be unable to take advantage of this (for example, hakumen 6B cannot be OD cancelled, but it will cancel into drive if you try to buffer OD. This doesnt seem to be the case with specials, only with normals that cannot be OD cancelled. - What this means for Terumi, is that you can press and hold the OD command during 6C to get a frame perfect raw overdrive after 6C recovers. You can even press from the first hit of 6C and hold it until 6C finishes, and it will continue to buffer. This makes CH 6C , OD Soutenjin a much more forgiving link, especially online.

I love doing this, but in my experience you really ride the line on combo time if you do any mash on 22c, usually allowing them to tech 236D, but you can break 7k on a 5b starter even if you dont mash.

In my experience, anything into 6B is an alarmingly large gap, and the only reason 6B doesnt get blown up is because of its crazy properties. For example, Ragna 2A and 5A doesnt beat it because of its properties, but Ragna 5B will clean beat anything cancelled into 6B Any character with a mid-height 5A like tao or plat can straight mash out of 6B, and a large chunk of the cast can 5B you out of it if they expect it. Even if you feign the move you still get CH. so the "x n" part of that suggestion is just asking to get blown up, tbh.

My mistake. The low P2 of Soutenjin doesnt really mean much when you consider how high the minimum damage is on his OD distortions

Yes, 22c is very nice, but that isnt what i meant, let me clarify. Is there an alternative to OD soutenjin that gets better damage? Fogel hinted that the apparently low P2 value of Soutenjin means that there are probably better pathways that get more damage. None of the other DDs provide similar damage while being able to continue the combo. Simply ignoring OD Soutenjin (and thus the low P2) doesnt seem to be capable of reaching the same levels of damage, outside of something like doing 6b Fatal, 3c 22c Fuuenjin, which still does less damage than a OD Soutenjin combo that ignores 22c. Edit: it seems to me that if you have the meter, its best to just incorporate OD Soutenjin and ignore the bad P2 value, as the damage it provides more than makes up for it

Soutenjin has bad P2? It really doesnt feel like it, good starters easily reach 5-7k using an early OD Soutenjin Can you link to the frame data? Dustloop wiki doesnt seem to have it and i cant read moon runes. What alternative do we really have for pumping damage into a combo, all the other super options either end the combo or just do less damage. His damage from normals doesnt seem very impressive, and it seems wasteful to just sit on 100 meter if you have it. I think its safe to assume that despite its bad P2, its still the best option for milking damage out of a combo. What does Soutenjin have anything to do with anti-burst with regards to OD combos?