Mr. Fancypants

Thanks for putting in the work Daymendou. It looks great.

This is a pretty interesting concept. Slayer gets a lot of mileage out of his meter, and threatening an early gold burst might not be a bad trick to have up your sleeve. I'm going to play around with this at my next casuals meetup and see where it gets me.

I would LOVE an updated Wiki. How can I help?

Apologies for the lazy "can someone test this for me?" post. I keep forgetting about this when I sit down with the game. Several characters in the game have approaches based on FD cancelling the first few frames of their j.2k, (Faust, Chipp... anyone else?) and I'm wondering if Slayer has the same superpower. Has anyone messed around with this? Is there a mechanics reason that this doesn't work? Does it work, but seem useless? Inquiring minds want to know! Edit: Remembered to test it out last night. He doesn't get any momentum change before the FD, so there's no tech there.

Hmm. I hadn't thought about whiffing dandy step in a hitless neutral to build meter. That's pretty sick. My actual experience in this matchup is very limited, and I have no replays to share. Most of this is based on playing theory fighter with my sparring partner. I still feel like Chipp can approach us safely, build a bunch of tension in a block string, then get out safely while building a meter lead. Maybe I'm underestimating the power of dandy step?

I ground this matchup out at Evo a little bit against a Chipp that was DEFINITELY better than me. My observations are as follows: The ambiguous j.H oki: Bad news: This is a nightmare blender. It's hard to block, which makes it harder to BDC out. If you CAN read the sides, though, you get back into the neutral for free. Good news: It telegraphs super hard. He comes down right on top of you and Blitz Shield cares NAUGHT for crossup shenanigans. Learn your blitz combos and make him respect your meter. Wallstick corner mixup: Bad news: He can decide where he comes down and how he hits you. You're deaing with the j.H oki plus some other shenanigans. Good news: 66 (dash into the stage) turns into backdash if he comes down in the corner, and seems to get slayer out of at least *some* of chipps non-crossup oki. Neutral game: Here's the part where I had the biggest problem. Good news: We're Slayer, he's Chipp. He dies if we get a solid hit. Bad news: Chipp is WAY more mobile than us, and has strong normals which can challenge ours. It's even possible for him to trade profitably against us with CH j.D, so watch out! Worse news: We lose a LOT of our options if he has meter. He can use his mobility to dance around outside our range, then wait for us to press a button, teleport YRC, and combo into knockdown. Teleport YRC is definitely his scariest option. It's 100% safe and is a punish against many of our typically strong neutral tools. As far as I can tell, the answer is to try to maintain a meter lead against him and play super safe against Teleports. Could you explain this to me? In what scenarios do you find yourself building meter faster than Chipp? It seems that he can run at us and jump over and away to gain forward-momentum meter, then alpha blade away to safety if we chase, building meter for movement and specials while we're trying to tag him with our safe buttons. If we can touch him and keep him blocking, sure, we get meter, but how does Slayer build a meter advantage in the neutral?

It can be nice against forward-moving attacks with short active frames: Ky 6k, Sol (raw) Fafnir, etc. Also as an answer to dive-kicky moves with longer active frames followed by vulnerable landing recovery: I-No j.236P/K/S dives, Leo j.D. You're right to call that out though. It's by far the most situational option, but it's nice to have in your kit when you're in situations where you don't have the frames to challenge your opponent with a normal. Timing, spacing, and opponent hitbox all factor into this. The timing of the normals after the IAD also matter, if you do the j.SK too late in the airdash, then by the time you do j.214k, you're falling too quickly to get the second hit.

Slayer's high skill floor makes a lot of good matchups seem bad. Consistently BDC super jumping out of oki and landing BDC bite against pressure is where Slayer gets to start playing his game against the rest of the cast. Because of this, Slayer gets larger rewards from strong use of mechanics than other characters. Instant blocking to get +1 gives you the opportunity to BDC out of pressure, where no other character can get out safely. Several of your key meterless combos are links. A lot of slayers game is based on making strong reads in neutral. With consistent, intelligent use of BDCs, he can keep playing a "neutral game" where any other character would be forced to defend against an opponent's pressure. Without them, Slayer is a read-based character without a full toolkit in the neutral game. Slayer gets a lot of mileage out of whiff punishing with Dandy step, and can build a solid gameplan around it. Eventually, however, Slayer will get knocked down, thrown, or forced to block. Slayer is weaker on defense than a lot of the cast. He uses BDCs and his slippery mobility to take advantage of neutral situations where he's negative, or as a response to a strong approach from his opponent. When under pressure, BDC is Slayer's ace-in-the-hole, Superjumping out of oki, imperfect blockstrings (instant-block everything, anyone?), or BDC-biting anything that has a hole in it. This lets Slayer play a truly unique game where his opponent must play a truly frame-perfect game. At any time, Slayer can make the right read and just get out for free. When you're chosing whether or not you want to play slayer, here are the facts you consider: BDC is the only reversal option in the game that can BEAT safe jumps. BDC Superjump gets out of (nearly) every oki setup in the game. BDC DOT is invincible until the active frames, and cannot be blocked up close unless the opponent is blocking BEFORE the superfreeze. Slayer has one of the highest execution barriers in the game, and is required to use these motions frequently throughout the match. If you think slayer is for you, then go to training mode, and start drilling 6321447H (Instant BDC bite) 44632147H (Delayed BDC bite) 663214H (FDC bite) 6641236H (crossup FDC bite) Once you can do 10 in a row on either side without messing up, set the computer to jump, then try to catch them with all of these options on their landing to tighten your timing. Again, do 10 in a row on either side. Try to run this drill at least once a week to keep your execution tight. When you have these options mastered, start working on 6321449S (BDC DoT) If you find yourself jumping, do 63214467S. They're both good. When you're comfortable with your bite motions, program the computer (or grab a friend!) to knock you down and apply safe-jump oki against you. BDC Bite it ad nauseum. If, after several attempts, the bite seems impossible, try to BDC superjump out of the pressure. If you're still getting hit, you know your BDC timing is poor. If you're getting out, then you know that EITHER your bite timing isn't fast enough to keep the invincibility frames OR, the setup is safe against bite. If you still like playing Slayer after putting yourself through this, then welcome to the club. Everything's gravy from here. Complicated tech Hours spent in training mode Playing Slayer: Bites

I grabbed some Evo Day 2 footage on my phone. My apologies for the poor video quality. Taka vs. Daymendou: Round 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bc2YC3xSag Round 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxX3ZAoXlQs Taka vs. Nakamura Round 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pvy1PTFOL8 Round 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pPXB7S6WKY

I stole this from the Sin v. Slayer matchup thread on the Sin boards. Can anyone verify that these are good tactics? Also, the Sin Matchup threads have links to the same thread from the other perspective in their top post. Could we get that going on in here? I guess I should just msg The_undercover_beret about it.

You're definitely correct, I just wasn't sure how granular to be with the options. BDJC and BDSJC into IAD/IAD FLJ/IAD FLJ YRC are all differently useful, and should be interspersed to keep the opponent on their toes.

Hey Slayers, I updated the wiki strategy section with some Slayer fundamentals as I understand them, which I will share here as well: Does anyone have any thoughts on this writeup? There's a lot more to say, but I feel like this is a good start to building a quick-reference resource for new slayers.

Some BDC frame data questions for the board, with data from the wiki: Slayer's Backdash is 28 frames, with invincibility on frames 1-20 Does anyone know how many invinicibility frames slayer gets from BDCing? The wiki says (speculated) 6 frames, but I was hoping someone had a more definitive answer. How much of Slayer's 28-frame backdash permits a jump cancel? Can you jump on frame 27? Can you carry invincibility out of the invincibility frames with a BDC? eg. If you jump on frame 19, do you still get 6 frames of invincibility, or only one? Inquiring fangs want to know!

Things I have learned about this matchup: -You need BDCs. This is true of all matches all the time, but in this one, you seriously need them. P mappa is very bad against Axl, BDC P mappa is very good. Once you establish your ability to repeatedly BDC P mappa in his face, he has to respect you for fear of CH mappa > 5k > Mappa RC > air combo. -You need BDCs. While Axl gets to approach you for free, You can't rush him down from full screen without a good guess. Also, he gets to push you out if you block. Do 442369P on reaction to approaches like IAD P to get out of the pressure and get in close at neutral. I live and die against Axl based on how effectively I can dance out of his approaches. -You really need BDCs. Axl has tools to beat BDC P mappa, and the best answer I've found is 442147KP. Getting out of a rensen or an Axl 2H and landing CH PB is a really great feeling. -You really, really need BDCs. BDC Bite covers almost all of Axl's wakeup options. I don't have BDC bites yet, and I get punished for it a lot. -FD in the air is probably more important here than any other matchup, and treat air-teching like you've been knocked down. You're at serious disadvantage and Axl can cover all the options aside from throw. So block. -That said, don't be afraid to fish for counterhits on Axl's chains. If you can come down on top of Axl's 5P with your j.D, you'll create a lot of space to get in. Do this *After* you've blocked a lot of those chains and you have a pretty good idea of when/where they'll appear. This is a HARD READ, and blocking is a better choice until you're sure it'll work. -Green Chains (Rensen?) > spinny knockdown chain followup in the corner is a frame trap. Don't mappa after the spinny chains. You will eat a DP. It will not be fun. -Slayer 6P beats Axl 2P clean. I don't know how to make Axl throw 2P, but I know I can beat it. -If you can establish yourself at the edge of your P mappa range, you have free license to spam 442369P and 442147PS these against him. They both put you at about the same spacing, so you can play with choices/tempo pretty freely. This will net you lots of guard bar, lots of meter, and eventually you can do empty 442147P > 2k/throw mixup into knockdown. If it seems like he's getting antsy, but you don't want to take a risk, do 442147P YRC 442147K. Trust me, it's fun. Also, 632146S > YRC > 214K punish against full-screen whiffed anything. 75% meter is a ton, but damage is damage at the end of a match. It felt a lot like fishing for the clinch DoT back in #Reload, just even more expensive. It's fun though, like being fired from a cannon. It works pretty well against opponents that know you are looking for the DoT, and are trying to bait you with something safe against the super.

I watched a bunch of Kubo and Hase slayer streams this week, and one thing that really stood out to me was how they set up their oki. After scoring a knockdown with a j.D, they would often land, score an OTG 2K, and cancel into dandy step from there to set up their UP/IL/Dandy YRC mixup. Resetting the knockdown with the OTG gave them so much more time to set up their next approach, and it yielded great results. I'm definitely adding this to my toolkit, and I don't recall seeing it mentioned here. Has anyone played around with this tech? If so, what have been your results?

I agree with fogel on this subject, you've got some fancy tricks to crush wakeup throw, but that's really not the big problem with the sol matchup. You MUST respect VV on oki. Full Stop. It's (haven't checked, just speaking from experience) the best DP in the game, and it will blow up your meaty. It just will. Accept it and stop trying to meaty him because VV is risky and he "shouldn't do it." It's super invincible, scores a hard knockdown, AND he can alter the recovery time to mess up your punish. Sol WANTS to DP on wakeup. Our solution? Let him. Slayer's all-the-time gameplan is bait and punish. He also wants to OS throw, because it's super safe. 6P, 6K, 6S, and 6H are ALL situationally good against us, so Slayer needs to make choices that answer OS throw AND VV. My go-to oki choices against Sol: Backdash Dandy step (YRC) These give you a clean punish against: VV, Wild Throw, All throw OS besides 6H, All crouching normals besides P. These give you reactionary options against: GV, Fafnir, Tyrant Rave, Bandit Revolver/Bringer, 6H. BDC jump cancel faultless to be safe, YRC to punish. If you're really quick, you can 442369P or 442147P for a punish on some of his less-used reversals like Fafnir, and 6H. Establishing Backdash and Dstep as your oki restricts Sol's wakeup options to: Jump, Do Nothing, Riot Stomp, Gunflame (only beats uncancelled-Dstep, so don't do that without meter). Riot stomp is obviously terrible anywhere but out of the corner, so midscreen he's down to jumping, blocking, and throwing safe normals. Once sol starts doing these against the above options, you can add crossup forward dash into the mix. Out of this you have 6642369H (crossup FDC bite) to beat whiffed normals (even jab), crossup c.S, and 662369P/K YRC for super safe punish opportunities. TLDR: Step 1 -Use 44 and 214P/K yrc to force Sol to play honest against your oki. -Punish VV with 6H, and punish throw OS with 44236P or 442147PP. If your reaction speed isn't that great, use 214P/K YRC Step 2 -If Sol stops VVing, you can stop YRCing your Dandys and start UP pressure. -If Sol stops OSing throw, use dash-through mixup to score big punishes against VV and get free throws. DISCLAIMER: I haven't tested these options against wakeup Bandit Bringer/Revolver, but the frame data suggests that you're still at advantage in these scenarios.

I, also, am having trouble with sparrow stance. I wonder if we can get away with FDC dead-on-time after the recovery... Have you tried 2S against Axl 6H? It should clash or beat it clean at most distances. It's scary to stick your foot in the air against that dandy bastard, but it's a strong AA. You can probably BDC jump out of Axl 6H with the proper reaction sped, but that puts you in the air just above him, which is basically an Axl players favorite thing, so jump with caution and a plan.

Slayer 2H has been providing excellent results in the Ky matchup. My plan-A right now against Ky is to get close to Ky and throw 2H. It gets clean counter hits against 2K, 2D, and 2S, which are often some of Ky's favorite buttons. It's probably not as godlike as it feels right now, but if you're struggling against a Ky, try using 2H aggressively and see how he responds.