[Xrd] Venom Formations and Ball Setups Thread

[Pomparomp]

Eshi breaks down Isamu's PQV setup here (English voice warning). Fascinating stuff, very strong against reversals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So8ksoiyhoQ

 

I can't seem to get this to work anymore. The pool cue gets tagged by the reversal every time. Am I not doing it tight enough, or do I need to modify it a bit to get the spacing right?

 

I was thinking of trying p qv > 5p > 6h > p qv k-s set, but I almost never wake up reversal so I can't test it reliably without grinding out the timings forever.

[DaiAndOh]

I can't seem to get this to work anymore. The pool cue gets tagged by the reversal every time. Am I not doing it tight enough, or do I need to modify it a bit to get the spacing right?

 

I was thinking of trying p qv > 5p > 6h > p qv k-s set, but I almost never wake up reversal so I can't test it reliably without grinding out the timings forever.

I'm not sure myself, but the best way is to test it frankly. It shouldn't take forever, just a few attempts in training mode (have the dummy as Venom rather than player character and record the setup).

If done off a corner combo or full throw combo ending in QV (rather than the throw->5HS in this video) I think it should still work in theory at least. Since pushing your opponent into the corner then QVing won't change their positioning much if at all in 1.1.

[Pomparomp]

It is also doable from full combos in 1.1, but you lose the ball you would either teleport to, or would let you keep at a tight spacing after you airdash back in. Not the end of the world, but it hurts your options on the pressure side of it a bit.

 

I tested around a bit. The spacing issue is resolved with extra hits, but getting those extra hits into a knockdown is finnicky from character to character. That was overthinking it in the first place though, all you have to do is take a step back before hitting 5h. They get pushed back onto the third ball on hit or block, and the reversal whiffs like it should.

 

You can also get the setup off of 2k > c.s (3) > p qv, dash or no, if you hold the qv for the tiniest fraction of a second. Of the ones I tried it on, it works on Ky, Sol, Chipp and Leo; while Millia and May got to tech out. I know from challenge mode that it's supposed to be possible to link QV into QV, but I've never been able to pull it off. That might allow you to try it on the super light characters if for some reason they're really in love with Winger or Ultimate Whiner or whatever other reversals the super light characters have.

[DaiAndOh]

QV linking into itself is a bit character dependent. Haven't bothered to mess with specifics.

Can't you just do it after any bnb knockdown into QV?

[Pomparomp]

You absolutely can, and it still performs its primary job in that case, but what happens there (in my experience at least) is that your third ball just barely gets tagged by one of the other two. If you want all your mix up options available you've got to sacrifice damage on a combo going into it and bank on pressure being good enough to make up the difference. I guess treat it more like a really long reset attempt in cases like that?

[Pomparomp]

Turns out taking a step back still tags the third ball if they crouch, something I didn't test. Your spacing stays tight enough from a low airdash in to either confirm a full punish or start pressure, but you'll sacrifice less damage with a normal combo. NOPE, K QV stuff pushes you too far out unless they're hella wide like Faust or Potemkin.. If they're a character that S QV throw combos work on, like sol, you can do that, otherwise you're sacrificing damage to try the setup in the first place.

 

Spent a few hours trying to find a way to get the spacing right and still retain all your options, but I could only find it off of a c.s launch. Double QV link does work on millia (I wouldn't want to risk letting her out for free from dropping this though), and it looks like winger still loses to the original throw set up with no changes. I might have been mistiming the reversal when I tested it though.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I've been fiddling with safejumps to find a way to enforce a low while minimizing the risk of getting reversal thrown. Here's what I came up with:

chain > 2D > K set, 669 jP [bH], mix up between falling jS/H and land small delay 2K.

 

It functions as an excellent safejump as both the high and the low are safe from reversals (assuming you're holding downback during the small delay before the 2K). The big downside is that it's vulnerable to blitz either way. This 'can' be thrown but it's pretty difficult to do. You would have to duck under the oncoming K ball and throw as it passes overhead. This is very tight to do when set up right, and still leaves them open to the high.

 

Thoughts? Anyone know of anything more efficient?

[Lynxfort]

I saw 2 oki options that a Japanese venom player do ..

1-oki in middle screen he do S.H set 669jS BH.

2-on corner P.K set.S Carcass 669jS BH."i think it's DP safe "

[Lynxfort]

2-on corner P.K set.S Carcass 669jS BH."i think it's DP safe "

Tested vs DP's..only Sol can hit venom ..

[Pomparomp]

This is definitely old news, but no one has written it down anywhere as far as I can tell. 

 

Whatever antiair into c.s > j.h > p set > j.d. Not the strongest mixup options, but keeps them blocking at least.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

^That's been my go to oki off of clS AA jc jH. It gets a similar mixup to basic p ball oki.

Anyway, there were a couple super nice corner setups that I picked up in the latest Fino vid.

First one is off of a combo ending in HQV. In this case it was corner throw, 6H xx KQV, 5K 6P (BH) 6H xx HQV, but I'm sure there are infinite possibilities for combos that lead to this setup:

Stuff xx HQV, K Set, rising jS (KBH):

Low - 2D (1) xx SCR, 6P (HBH) 6H xx SQV, 5P IAD etc.

High - gonna mess around in training mode tomorrow to figure out the most efficient option. Probably something like falling jS or late airdash jSH

EDIT: Now that I'm messing around with this setup, I'm tring to figure out how he got jS to only put the K ball in motion. Every time I try it I hit both balls. I *think* he's making the ball get blocked before it can put the other into motion, but how he's doing this is beyond me. If anyone can provide any insight, it would be greatly appreciated. That being said, the setup still works with either jK or jH, albeit with tradeoffs in gaps either before or after the ball impact.

For reference: https://youtu.be/0Y7E-wS2DNg at around 13:22

As you would expect from any setup Fino does, it is 100% blitz safe, even if you have to jury rig it with jK or jH.

Another:

Corner knockdown xx K set or QV, HCR (KBH), SCR (Charge BH), 5P (Charge BH) into frame trap shenanigans.

A possibly better option than the usual P set SCR corner oki? Probably a lot more strict with spacing though.

[GodPress]

First one is off of a combo ending in HQV. In this case it was corner throw, 6H xx KQV, 5K 6P (BH) 6H xx HQV, but I'm sure there are infinite possibilities for combos that lead to this setup:

Stuff xx HQV, K Set, rising jS (KBH):

Low - 2D (1) xx SCR, 6P (HBH) 6H xx SQV, 5P IAD etc.

High - gonna mess around in training mode tomorrow to figure out the most efficient option. Probably something like falling jS or late airdash jSH

EDIT: Now that I'm messing around with this setup, I'm tring to figure out how he got jS to only put the K ball in motion. Every time I try it I hit both balls. I *think* he's making the ball get blocked before it can put the other into motion, but how he's doing this is beyond me. If anyone can provide any insight, it would be greatly appreciated. That being said, the setup still works with either jK or jH, albeit with tradeoffs in gaps either before or after the ball impact.

For reference: https://youtu.be/0Y7E-wS2DNg at around 13:22

As you would expect from any setup Fino does, it is 100% blitz safe, even if you have to jury rig it with jK or jH.

 

The rising j.S is done just after the apex of the jump to only put the K ball in motion, doesnt matter if its on hit or block after that you'll only hit the K-ball. 

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I see what you mean. I'll mess with it later to see if I can get it consistent. He does do the same setup with jK instead later in the video around 32:38 after initially faking out the setup with a couple S CRs. Maybe both normals are viable?

As a side note, this setup can also be done off of clS xx SQV 669 etc in the corner, but you NEED to use jH to hit just the K and S balls. Everything else hits the H ball and renders the setup useless. You'll also need to go for a late airdash chain for a high because jH's animation is too long to do a falling jS. Probably not the /best/ setup for potential 3 ball oki, but it's a decent option.

[GodPress]

I see what you mean. I'll mess with it later to see if I can get it consistent. He does do the same setup with jK instead later in the video around 32:38 after initially faking out the setup with a couple S CRs. Maybe both normals are viable?

 

You can indeed use j.K as well, im not sure if j.K is burst safe though? Haven't tested it.

[KrisDF2K]

i was messing around in training mode today after seeing that HQV, k ball set up and found something simular:

corner set-up- PQV, k ball, 5p, teleport to k ball, PBH, land, 2d, SCR, 6p, k ball hit, 6hs, into set up.
i'm not expecting this to be new but I thought i would share it anyways.

Something I forgot to add is that if your opponent blocks the 2d, SCR, you can still maintain your pressure with a kball at ready for a high/low mix up if you wish. Of course this is character dependent due to the position of the k-ball and crouching heights of different characters.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Neat little alternate route from midscreen for a similar setup:

 

(round start position)2K clS[3] xx SQV, 669 jKSHD 6H xx K set into the same oki

 

The S ball from that position allows for a 2D[1] xx CR, 6P BH style followup. Didn't get a chance to test spacing restrictions, but it definitely works from round start position. A neat little alternative if you get mid to corner carry off clS. 

 

Also, for this setup and the previously discussed H > K setup, taking a step back before the jK BH helps keep it consistently blitz safe, as well as giving the right spacing to loop back into the same setup off the low. This is especially useful vs characters where the 6H xx SQV 5P IAD extension isn't possible. Ending with just 6H xx HQV can leave you too far forward where the H ball will be off screen and won't connect from 2D xx CR 6P if you go repeat this too many times. Taking that step back ensures that this setup can be looped indefinitely and be relatively safe from the common defensive options.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, we have corner setplay. Now to find something dirty and blitz safe midscreen.....

[KrisDF2K]

Nice SMF. I'll be practicing this today.

Here's something else I've been messing with, it's very simple but it has worked for me:
6H corner set-up, s-ball (hold), tele, j.s YRC, ad- high/low

pretty silly high low set up, somewhat blitz safe since the YRC will mess with the opponent's wake-up timing. 

[Pomparomp]

midscreen c.s > SQV> 669 J.KSHD > 6H Hset 669 j.s

 

Timed right it'd blitz safe and jump proof, a good alternative to SK stuff, which I have a lot of trouble performing for whatever reason. I tested it using the same recording on Chipp, Venom, and Bedman, the timing appears to be universal. Wanna delay your jump slightly, a tiny bit before the S ball finishes moving into position, otherwise your ball will hit too deep on their wakeup, and you'll be close enough to get blitzed.

 

edit:I'm having trouble getting this to work now and i'm finding SK brainless, the opposite of last night VOV

I tried to find similar stuff that could be done off crouching confirms midscreen using SQV > 5p > QV. Best I could find was S QV > P set > 5p TP, didn't feel very solid or reliable.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Pomparomp

[Pomparomp]

I'm dumb, you can just do the K QV > P set > 5P > H set > f.s > TP setup off the second thing.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Pomparomp

[Pomparomp]

midscreen c.s > SQV> 669 J.KSHD > 6H Hset 669 j.s

I was tired and drunk when I wrote this down. It was supposed to be midscreen c.s > PQV> 669 J.KSHD > 6H Hset 669 j.s

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Two tidbits that I'm not sure have been discussed before:

Expanding on the H > K set corner oki I was all happy over earlier in the thread, turns out it's not 100% blitz or reversal safe depending on character wakeup timing, spacing into the setup, etc. The silver lining is that off nearly any knockdown it can be with 25 meter at any spacing. Example:

standing in corner: 2K clS[3] 2866 jSHD 6H xx SQV, 6P(BH) 6H xx H > K set, H stinger YRC 669jK (both balls hit) into old school K ball mixup.

I just used this combo as an extreme example that this can be done from really far out. It's debatable whether it's worth the meter, especially with all the cheeky BRO stuff being figured out, but I like it.

 

And for a set pattern in neutral:

If you  are up against a character with potent horizontal zoning (cough Ky setting Split Ciels cough cough), and manage to get a P ball out, jump back H set, 66 jS/D (BH) is a great way to control space and get around that stuff. jD is more for a 2/3rd screen distance and prevents jumping, jS works from fullscreen, but doesn't control anything above jump height.

[DaiAndOh]

I've questioned the efficiency of that mixup for 25 meter for a while, but it does have some merit. It's good enough for Fino and Blacksnake at least lol, it's an interesting question to ask: Is 25 meter + meter gain penalty worth safety from reversals and 2 extra balls of chip...the answer may still yet change depending on the game situations...

[TittyFOFO]

That setup safely allows access to some of the more high damage corner mixups. Id say it's worth it. I've been meaning to implement it in my game, but I'm too scrubby to summons balls using the hold method, which I think is required to get the true meaty YRC Stingers again most characters.

I mean, some peace of mind when doing oki on Sol is definitely worth 25% IMO. But yeah, it definitely varies from character to character. 

[Pomparomp]

https://giant.gfycat.com/GlaringLargeFluke.mp4

c.s(3) xx k qv > s qv > 5p,6h xx h set > s carcass raid > f.s xx teleport

 

edit:

https://giant.gfycat.com/PointedLimpingIrukandjijellyfish.webm

c.s(3) xx k qv > s qv > 5p xx p qv > 5p xx h qv > s CR

enough charge time that you can actually meaty CR, a LITTLE more damage, but you have to be extremely close or h qv will whiff.

[AznSpyderman]

That's hot. I like that second one.