[Xrd] Slayer vs. Sol Badguy

[The_undercover_beret]

Please use this thread to share your thoughts, experiences and advice on how to deal with this match-up.

[RoBoBOBR]

GV punish - HS off air then jSHD j2K K JC SHD

BR should be blocked standing or else it's unpunishable even on IB. On regular stand block go  for throw.

[DandyStepOnTheDanceFloor]

I'm having trouble baiting sol's reversal.. My first GG so it may be common knowledge but i feel like i have to stand there and give up my 50/50s.. The only thing that kind of worked was p dandy under pressure block on knock down but then im open begging to be thrown.. How do maintain control?

[Angry Guy of DE]

If you are timing the follow-up of under pressure correctly you are throw invul. during the start-up.

upon knockdown and then starting the dandy pressure with under pressure you have a few routes you can take:

1: Meaty under pressure- This can beat out most things that aren't invincible frame 1.  The other advantage is that if meaty enough you link a move into mappa hunch or potentially a sweep to start it again.  If they pressed a button and it CH's them they get ground bounced which allows a combo.

2:Staggered under pressure- This will beat wake-up throw or even wild toss being of throw invul. properties on the follow-up.  This can be risky due to Sol's VV and also a Sol would likely option select throw with 6K+H which will give throw or a three frame kick to come out.

3:No follow-up into a low or throw- This is used once a person is conditioned to block the overhead.  Without meter to RC the most you'll get is 2K > Mappa hunch or sweep.

4:No follow-up into a backdash- This is where you expect wake-up reversals to show up that will just blow through your pressure.  This is a viable option because the dandy step S is even(?) on block so your backdash will evade most dp's and grant you a good punish.  If they don't try to dp you can also do BDC (Back-Dash Cancel) Mappa Hunch to evade a normal and then hit them with a mappa hunch on their recovery.


Slayer is about fundamentals and making the opponent make risky guesses against things that are safe for you.  If a player wants to just do wake-up DP 90% of the time, let them and punish them 100% of the time until they learn (or you win).

[DandyStepOnTheDanceFloor]

It's not the being thrown i have a probably with it's the fear of being thrown when im baiting a dp. For example i noticed he would dp often. Probably about 60% but he wouldn't just enough to where i was unsure how to react.. It was like he was in control on my knock down.. So i started doing p dandy into an empty under pressure to bait dp which works but once he caught on he wouldn't dp and wake up and throw.. So then i started adding it's late again to punish it.. What's frustrating was we got into this scenario where i was guessing on if i should add its late or not.

[DandyStepOnTheDanceFloor]

Most of the time i lost the guessing game which made me mad bc i don't feel like i should be this afraid of him on his wakeup.. My question is how can i feel in control but be smart and safe?

[MoralHazardPay]

Early meaty It's Late beats throsw and, if they try to throw, gets you a CH combo. A late It's Late loses to throws but gets you a combo on normal hit. I'm not sure if doing a 2k meaty beats throw or not, but that also gets you a combo. If you expect a reversal instead of a throw you can can either block or do a BDC Mappa, or Dandy Step. The last two can beat both reversal and throw but are risky if they do a delayed attack

[Angry Guy of DE]

If you are worried about the player's tendency to try wake-up throw or DP you should instead opt for set-ups that make one of the options risky for them to attempt.

Wake-up throw can be stop by learning the range of throws and being just outside of that range.  A spaced out 2K has the advantage of both range as well as having a low-profile.  If a person relies on wake-up throw too often 5K and 2K spaced properly are invaluable since you can link another 5K into Mappa hunch for respectable damage when they are CH'd by your move.

By the way it sounds you are a little unsure as to whether your own strings and set-ups are predictable enough for this Sol player to react to with throw or VV.  As odd as it sounds just fake him out and test strings that can catch people pressing buttons at the wrong time.  5K > 6H is a good string as it has enough of a gap that a person can get hit by 6H and 6H can combo into pilebunker for respectable damage and corner push.

Backdash is a strong tool that you need to learn against people on wake-up because you have a healthy amount of invul. combined with the option of BDC Mappa hunch or Dandy step to continue pressure.  Don't get frustrated if a person is not respecting your wake-up pressure, just try to pick up on a person's habits and how often they want to rely on DP or throw.

[fogelstrom]

I feel your pain but I don't think the advice given is really that solid, no offense Moral and Hazard but I just feel that you are making out the problem too light.

If you stand outside throw range to not get thrown and do meatys you will still loose to VV. It's ALWAYS going to be a gamble versus Sol. And if your oki isn't a gamble that means you are giving up the oki and Sol doesn't have to worry about knockdown.

I personally use un-meaty It's Late to blow up throws. But when you do this setup you whiff an Under Pressure in their face. And they have no way of knowing if you are going to do nothing, It's Late, 2K or throw yourself. 3 of these options can and will get you thrown vs mashers and the other beats that. So what do you do?
 

Well since I overly use above mentioned oki the best I can do is to whiff Under Pressure and do a backdash. Obviously I give up my oki and at times this sucks but I feel somewhat confident in the neutral that I can live with it. Most Sol players cut it out after you bait and punish a few times. Not everyone is so bright however.

You CAN safejump as Nasu has shown us. On knockdown he does straight jump something and can block if the shoryu but it looks terrible for any other purpose. Other than that this isn't SF4 so it's all about reads and call outs.

Main point is that this is an issue though mostly on higher level play the Sol player is always way less hesitant to VV on wakeups due to what would happen if baited. I mean if you bait on and have good reactions you can CWH punish it for what 200dmg? Half an life bar for a gamble 2 of those and he's out.

[MoralHazardPay]

I'm not really making a value judgment as to how easy the situation is, just trying to show the decision tree that's at your disposal. You have to guess if they're going to reversal or not. If you guess reversal, there are a few options for beating it, each with their own downside if you guess wrong. Then you have to guess if they'll throw, and that has a couple of different options. After that you have a legitimate high/low game

A thought; can you YRC on their wakeup to eat their reversal inputs and go into a meaty 6K/2K mixup?

[fogelstrom]

A thought; can you YRC on their wakeup to eat their reversal inputs and go into a meaty 6K/2K mixup?

That's just mean!

Probably does work ^^;

Dunno if I'd be willing to spend the meter regardless. Maybe if it was for the win. Might be worth trying out.

[Mr. Fancypants]

I agree with fogel on this subject, you've got some fancy tricks to crush wakeup throw, but that's really not the big problem with the sol matchup. You MUST respect VV on oki. Full Stop. It's (haven't checked, just speaking from experience) the best DP in the game, and it will blow up your meaty. It just will. Accept it and stop trying to meaty him because VV is risky and he "shouldn't do it." It's super invincible, scores a hard knockdown, AND he can alter the recovery time to mess up your punish.

 

Sol WANTS to DP on wakeup. Our solution? Let him. Slayer's all-the-time gameplan is bait and punish.

He also wants to OS throw, because it's super safe. 6P, 6K, 6S, and 6H are ALL situationally good against us, so Slayer needs to make choices that answer OS throw AND VV.

 

My go-to oki choices against Sol:

 

Backdash

Dandy step (YRC)

 

These give you a clean punish against: VV, Wild Throw, All throw OS besides 6H, All crouching normals besides P.

These give you reactionary options against: GV, Fafnir, Tyrant Rave, Bandit Revolver/Bringer, 6H. BDC jump cancel faultless to be safe, YRC to punish. If you're really quick, you can 442369P or 442147P for a punish on some of his less-used reversals like Fafnir, and 6H.

 

Establishing Backdash and Dstep as your oki restricts Sol's wakeup options to: Jump, Do Nothing, Riot Stomp, Gunflame (only beats uncancelled-Dstep, so don't do that without meter). Riot stomp is obviously terrible anywhere but out of the corner, so midscreen he's down to jumping, blocking, and throwing safe normals.

 

Once sol starts doing these against the above options, you can add crossup forward dash into the mix. Out of this you have 6642369H (crossup FDC bite) to beat whiffed normals (even jab), crossup c.S, and 662369P/K YRC for super safe punish opportunities.

 

TLDR: 
Step 1
-Use 44 and 214P/K yrc to force Sol to play honest against your oki.
-Punish VV with 6H, and punish throw OS with 44236P or 442147PP. If your reaction speed isn't that great, use 214P/K YRC

Step 2
-If Sol stops VVing, you can stop YRCing your Dandys and start UP pressure.
-If Sol stops OSing throw, use dash-through mixup to score big punishes against VV and get free throws.

DISCLAIMER: I haven't tested these options against wakeup Bandit Bringer/Revolver, but the frame data suggests that you're still at advantage in these scenarios.

[MoralHazardPay]

Looking at the frame data you won't be able to combo of a 6k meaty without a RC, but using YRC to eat inputs still seems like a plan.

Also, I think doing c.S 6H 214PK is the best punish on VV in terms of damage and consistency.

I should use Dandy YRC more though, good point

[DandyStepOnTheDanceFloor]

Thanks for all the different advice.. I appreciate the time you all took! This was helpful, i didn't know yrc messed up inputs.

[moonburn_]

Sol is probably tied for worst matchup for me, along with Leo. I am starting to learn how to deal with hyper-aggressive Leos (P-Dandy PB and far P-mappa come to mind) but Sol is always an uphill battle for me. I have been able to runback a few rounds from significant deficits, but it is rare for me to actually steal the match since I have so much ground to make up. 

[fogelstrom]

Slayer is low tier and Sol is a good high tier.
Alot of matchups are uphill battles this one isn't excluded.
With things said already it's a bit daunting but you kinda have to be the better player. Isn't any magic formula besides trying to learn from your mistakes as much and fast as possible!

Starting to get the hang of throw punishing a blocked Bandit Revolver after standing up to block it if not properly spaced. Really nice when getting pressured in the corner!
 

[Melo]

Whenever we're midscreen, and Sol does gunflame, I've started reacting with k dandy yrc. It keeps Sol from snowballing momentum with gunflame YRC and resets the situation to neutral, which is where I've found I do best in the match-up. K dandy yrc also fucks up whatever the hell they are going to do next since YRC will eat their input.

 

The biggest problems for me are 5k and 2D. Our 2p loses to both of those and in neutral they both beat dandy (which you really shouldn't be doing versus Sol due to gunflame, but YOLO PBs is can be a stress reliever at times) and mappa. 5K being 3 frames is fucking disgusting and they can react to a dash cross up with it, which equals lots of pain near the corner. I feel a better 2H would help here but anyways to deal with those 2 currently?

 

Also, if you do get cross up dash, you can do SSSS>5p>5k>mappa to maximize damage, but only do this if you you hit him if you are right on top of him or 5p will whiff.