[CT] Rachel: Matchups

[Alex073088]

To evil wolf:

I agree, tager can capatilze on a mistake(/like omg i ib now its time to 720/) severly while we are not able to do so.

i think cs is unbalanced in a different kinda way, the zoning top three made it very hard to do anything once they were allowed to get things started using there projectiles, which were hard to stop in the first place. in cs projectiles bounce off shit all over the place.

However we have two characters who are offensively broken, and woulda have been fine if they were the way they are in cs if they allowed the ct tops to remain the way there were with reasonable adjustments. taokaka included. I once told a friend that balancing a game does not mean nerfing the better characters and strengthing the weaker ones. espically when this applys to characters that require breathing room to be effective.

The match against tager is such an uphill battle.zoning does not work almost against anyone who isnt ragna. Infact i wouldnt even activate the rods i would leave them there, and use that as a way to extend your range for 5b>j.2c/3c>sword iris mix-ups combos, when you activate rods and there blocked you really lose alot of your advantage. And since theres a delay in activation you have to zap a little sooner then if there sitting or running past it at the time.

i would suggest doing your best to be a tank and counter every method he tries

(tager) using to harm rachel.I mean we cant keep rushing him forever. all of our are moves are unsafe on block, and we will run out of our nerfed charging wind. leaving us a sitting duck.

[MisterBadguy]

Alex, keep in mid that barrier extends the barriering individual's blockstun to balence the pushback effect. Also timing your j.2c a little higher should fix that problem. If you're running into opponents that jump out of pressure, they are not very good at blocking (i.e. haven't been punished enough for dumb shit like that.) A swift airthrow off of 5b is usually the answer if they're holding 7 to block. You could also frametrap a 2b or 3c, but with online, I dunno how effective it is consistantly. Other than that, you just have to make them respect what you can do to land that overhead. I'll even admit that I don't really use it outside of frog set-ups. Though Geno's got me doing it off of 2a once I've conditioned someone to block low.

And yes, I've removed you from my block list. We're prolly gonna run into each other at CS tournies, both being around the Baltimore area. I don't want there to be any hard feelings, so sorry for the name calling. k?

[A.X.I.S.]

alex is a solid rachel even though his posts on DL doesn't reflect it...

also I'm a firm believer that the tager vs rachel match up isn't impossible.

not even close...now if it was 7-3...I would just laugh at you guys and let you know ya had it coming.

[MisterBadguy]

Good Tagers still give me trouble Axis. They're just few and far between noadays.

[A.X.I.S.]

Good Tagers still give me trouble Axis. They're just few and far between noadays.

we the tager forums have agreed that we don't even have to block much anymore...

we also agreed to spam gadget finger and 360's...

and to add insult to injury we don't even block the fork...because we know its useless.

[MisterBadguy]

we the tager forums have agreed that we don't even have to block much anymore...

we also agreed to spam gadget finger and 360's...

and to add insult to injury we don't even block the fork...because we know its useless.

You magnificent bastards.......

[Alex073088]

Alex, keep in mid that barrier extends the barriering individual's blockstun to balence the pushback effect. Also timing your j.2c a little higher should fix that problem. If you're running into opponents that jump out of pressure, they are not very good at blocking (i.e. haven't been punished enough for dumb shit like that.) A swift airthrow off of 5b is usually the answer if they're holding 7 to block. Other than that, you just have to make them respect what you can do to land that overhead. I'll even admit that I don't really use it outside of frog set-ups. Though Geno's got me doing it off of 2a once I've conditioned someone to block low.

And yes, I've removed you from my block list. We're prolly gonna run into each other at CS tournies, both being around the Baltimore area. I don't want there to be any hard feelings, so sorry for the name calling. k?

Np:keke:, there should be tournaments in the baltimore area for cs, at this place called xanadu's(near st.agnes hosipital) im not sure if you been there before. If you have you should know of me alot of people seem to know of because of my online posting i guess from srk( i dont post there anymore way to many sf fanboys).

Right now though im pretty much the only person who is eager to play ct out of a room full of people(at xanadu). Your response to the jumping habits of my opponents is dead on i should do some barrier run canceling and try and go for air throws. Against bang ragna jin who have those really good jump normals though its a little tough thats. I normally air throw on my opponents habit, or habits that players use to try and gain advantage.

The only bad thing would be about timing you j.2c a little higher will allow the opponent to react to it because it will no longer be an instant overhead.Which i guess wouldnt be a bad thing because not many characters can stop it, hakumen can drive your next option after j.2c though.

But you know i really hate when my mix-ups are blocked it sucks so much, i dont really go for 5b>j.2c to much on the better live players i do jump winding do 2b stuff with my pumpkin out and it never gets blocked.also 5b>3c>rod is near them

alex is a solid rachel even though his posts on DL doesn't reflect it...

also I'm a firm believer that the tager vs rachel match up isn't impossible.

not even close...now if it was 7-3...I would just laugh at you guys and let you know ya had it coming.

=D thanks.

I dont know we will see if i can still pull off some wins on your tager when cs drops. I dont have my tager infinite anymore in that game =/.

[MisterBadguy]

Ah, that good ol' Tager hitbox. I'mma miss abusing the f*** out of it.

I've been wanting to swing by Xanadu for a while now, but I'm one broke ass Injun. I'll try to make it Wednesday to get bodied at guilty if my money's right.

[EvilWolf]

To k2:

there where ways around rachels mix-ups midscreen which was to barrier, if your opponent is barriering which all players do, 5b>j.2c will whiff. i dont even mix-up mid screen unless it was with a pumpkin(without frog) and im in range to lick there face if i wanted to. Otherwise i just save my wind and do a safe blockstring. And people jump around so often that 4b and j.3c+3d misses them, you can also mash buttons if you go for 4b in t. mix-ups are gurantee in the corner which i thought was fair as long as wind was managed right.

6a was the only thing we somewhat had to make it so that people dont abuse the sky against us, and also one of our main ways to punish people who jump out of pressure resets all the time and to net us some damage. rachel air to air against everyone is really bad, and players jump all over the place when fighting rachel with there superior jump normals. Its hard to lock players down because of it. To me there's nuthin wrong with giving rachel atleast one good normals because we all know the rest are crap.(execpt j.2c)

nu still has 3c,

ragna still 5b,

tager still has 5a j.b j.d,

jin lost j.b but his new normals is only slightly worst then j.b,

litchi has j.b j.b 6b,

carl has j.a and ground normals that severly out range you,

taokaka has good air normals but that doesnt matter you have a hard time locking her down in ct and in cs its seems almost like an impossible task(the only way is if the player makes a mistake),

arakune has good air options, possibly one of the best aerial characters in the game

bang j.b j.c j.nails

hakumen new cs pokes are godlike

etc etc

We coulda had 6a but we got shit

6b isnt broken it comes out really slow, and it was the only only way we could get a punish off unsafe things done on block in its respective range without it we arent punishing anything its takes way to many frames to get out of blockstun walk up hit 5b, or 2a before there jumping away or able to block again.

Rachel only got 7k with 3rods and herself without very little proration, anything else and the opponent should have been able to tech out. Taokaka gets 7k off taunt loop now without meter. none of ct tops got 7k without meter, even with it.

The guard breaking was a bit much, but still other characters can also guard break us, and there still doing it in cs because we cant do anything about it.

And for being ss tier rachel requires more work and learning then almost any character in that game carl would be a step more work and learning. you should be rewarded not punished like in cs, i have way more fun knowing that i have the tools to win.

Rather then knowing that there gonna be some matches where i lack so much to compete with just about everyone in the roster and its very easy for them to abuse certain things on me because of how the character works. I dont plan on losing when cs comes out, but i will never agree that rachel deserved to be nerfed like the way she was in cs.

Yes, V-13 deserved to be nerfed more than Rachel. Its not like you could just use Rachel in CT and anyhow spam and win. Rachel needed skill to be played well, which is why Rachel doesn't seem broken at a lowbie lvl of play. V-13 was far more broken. And yet, look at Lambda and arakune now, both still doing 8k combos.

To evil wolf:

I agree, tager can capatilze on a mistake(/like omg i ib now its time to 720/) severly while we are not able to do so.

i think cs is unbalanced in a different kinda way, the zoning top three made it very hard to do anything once they were allowed to get things started using there projectiles, which were hard to stop in the first place. in cs projectiles bounce off shit all over the place.

However we have two characters who are offensively broken, and woulda have been fine if they were the way they are in cs if they allowed the ct tops to remain the way there were with reasonable adjustments. taokaka included. I once told a friend that balancing a game does not mean nerfing the better characters and strengthing the weaker ones. espically when this applys to characters that require breathing room to be effective.

The match against tager is such an uphill battle.zoning does not work almost against anyone who isnt ragna. Infact i wouldnt even activate the rods i would leave them there, and use that as a way to extend your range for 5b>j.2c/3c>sword iris mix-ups combos, when you activate rods and there blocked you really lose alot of your advantage. And since theres a delay in activation you have to zap a little sooner then if there sitting or running past it at the time.

i would suggest doing your best to be a tank and counter every method he tries

(tager) using to harm rachel.I mean we cant keep rushing him forever. all of our are moves are unsafe on block, and we will run out of our nerfed charging wind. leaving us a sitting duck.

There is one block string Rachel still has that can abuse Tager's hitbox. Remember the old j.b, j2.c, j.c loop? I use j.a, j.b, j.a, j.c against tager, costs no wind and is fairly safe. Problem is, sometimes when I use it, I get grabbed as soon as I land, but if you jump cancel or use wind, you can probably avoid it. That's pretty much the only safe block string against tager. Rachel can't do anything against Tager in close range when she's magnetised, except block. And Tager's sledge is unfair. I fought a Tager once, he punched through my Tempest Dahlia and killed me.

And as for detonating the poles, I suggest you do it Alex, they are a great mixup, especially in the air, good for covering your retreat or offensively. And is it through barrier blocking results in more blockstun?

[GenoWhirl]

6b CS combos are hype (lol)

maybe with pumpkin~

[Alex073088]

Yes, V-13 deserved to be nerfed more than Rachel. Its not like you could just use Rachel in CT and anyhow spam and win. Rachel needed skill to be played well, which is why Rachel doesn't seem broken at a lowbie lvl of play. V-13 was far more broken. And yet, look at Lambda and arakune now, both still doing 8k combos.

There is one block string Rachel still has that can abuse Tager's hitbox. Remember the old j.b, j2.c, j.c loop? I use j.a, j.b, j.a, j.c against tager, costs no wind and is fairly safe. Problem is, sometimes when I use it, I get grabbed as soon as I land, but if you jump cancel or use wind, you can probably avoid it. That's pretty much the only safe block string against tager. Rachel can't do anything against Tager in close range when she's magnetised, except block. And Tager's sledge is unfair. I fought a Tager once, he punched through my Tempest Dahlia and killed me.

And as for detonating the poles, I suggest you do it Alex, they are a great mixup, especially in the air, good for covering your retreat or offensively. And is it through barrier blocking results in more blockstun?

If tager is spamming grab after j.c i would jump cancel, j.c if possible, 3d.+j.b to see if he's mashing. tagers standard throw has so much range and it recovers very fast.This should allow you to saftely land for a blockstring by conditioning the better players not mash. k2 mentioned ib j.c command throw, im pretty sure tagers are gonna do it.

Maybe we should only jump with pumpkin available although it goes away super fast.

And your right in the air they are good for covering your retreat, im going to try your suggestion and also seeing if i can use them for mix-ups midscreen.

I understand that j.2c>lobelia a is punishable by tager on block, can anyone see if it get blocks if you can wind your self away from him before landing to make it hard for him to punish the recovery?

[Leo7]

I understand that j.2c>lobelia a is punishable by tager on block, can anyone see if it get blocks if you can wind your self away from him before landing to make it hard for him to punish the recovery?

what do you mean before landing. do you mean winding away after the j.2c or winding away before the lobelia.

for the record, if you try j.2c > lobelia, you're going to get 720'd before lobelia even comes out.

[Alex073088]

i mean to wind your self away so that you wont be near him after he blocks j.2c, is it possible?

[K2]

wt kind of skills do you need to play ct rachel? i am not talking about newbi 2d players here,trying to learn how to get in and do the executions, it is the tool she has to make her full of bullshit.

but naa...don't want to aruge, we all know wt she has too much in ct and too little in cs.

and is not possibel to wind urself away, tager will still grab u the moment ur j2c touch him. it is that fast and far

[GenoWhirl]

You shouldn't be using J.2c outside of combos on CS tager unless you have frog/pumkpin out.

[Alex073088]

pumpkin wont save you anyway, he can grab through that also.

[EvilWolf]

If tager is spamming grab after j.c i would jump cancel, j.c if possible, 3d.+j.b to see if he's mashing. tagers standard throw has so much range and it recovers very fast.This should allow you to saftely land for a blockstring by conditioning the better players not mash. k2 mentioned ib j.c command throw, im pretty sure tagers are gonna do it.

Maybe we should only jump with pumpkin available although it goes away super fast.

And your right in the air they are good for covering your retreat, im going to try your suggestion and also seeing if i can use them for mix-ups midscreen.

I understand that j.2c>lobelia a is punishable by tager on block, can anyone see if it get blocks if you can wind your self away from him before landing to make it hard for him to punish the recovery?

Sword Iris is good for mixups mid-screen and for linking combos. Eg. if your opponent blocks your first combo and you have a pole nearby, use it to keep your opponent blocking. If I recall, Sword Iris's blockstun lasts for longer than most of Rachel's normals.

You shouldn't be using J.2c outside of combos on CS tager unless you have frog/pumkpin out.

Stupid nerf to J.2c...must be the worst nerf Rachel has gotten...