Skye Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Her D's are cancelable every which way, including jump, which means she's pretty much always plus enough to be safe all the way through the end of the block string. Tager also cannot shoot while in the air, and can only walk forward with the shot because any jump and be D'd backward on reaction. No matter how you look at it this isn't the best situation to be in. Shot and D also have the same start up, so you cannot react to the first D with a shot. Also, if you trade you lose the follow up combo generally, but that's better than getting hit out of the start up and losing the shot. You have a point then. Still worth a shot, unless you wanna wait for a sure opportunity, better to use it and get lucky than hope for a far less likely chance of a guaranteed hit.
HZMN Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Yup, it's that easy. I don't know what all the other Tagers are doing, you figured it out and you don't even play Tager! I can't tell if this is sarcasm or you simply don't have a clue. Already stated that the projectile start up times are the same and why Spark bolt can't be done on reaction to counter D. Also a decent Nu is going to be watching for Spark Bolt anyway and knows the startup fact as well. Super armor is just asking for punishment from that Sickle Wheel (or w/e its called) of Nu's. So a quick charge for Spark bolt is out of the question. Another thing that needs to be tested is Nu's minimum blade range against Tager vs Everyone else. I'm going to test this tomorrow to see what the extent of it is (if any) but I swear earlier today I got hit with a D from Nu when I THOUGHT i was in that space where blades don't work anymore, and thus got comboed. The thing I'm worried about though, is if the range thing proves to be true, then does that blade count as a crossup since it technically starts behind Tager at that point.
Osuna Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 You have a point then. Still worth a shot, unless you wanna wait for a sure opportunity, better to use it and get lucky than hope for a far less likely chance of a guaranteed hit....What? That makes no sense on 2 levels. First that there actually isn't a chance for a lucky hit unless the Nu player strays from playing safe, in which case you could nail him 'guaranteed'. This makes your statement being true literally impossible. I wouldn't even test the blade thing for cross up ness, the game system has several examples of getting hit from behind by projectiles and you block them by blocking whichever side the opponent is on every time.
Skye Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Wow, you sure put a lot of faith in the V-13 player never fucking up. Shit, if that's how you wanna do it, pick a more capable character. Easy.
Osuna Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Wow, you sure put a lot of faith in the V-13 player never fucking up. Shit, if that's how you wanna do it, pick a more capable character. Easy.The whole point you came up with was to throw out the shot after Nu became safe because it was somehow more likely to hit then than when nu makes a mistake, which is logically impossible because for it to hit nu would have to make a mistake was my train of thought. But I was just angry at the time, don't take it to heart.
Skye Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 The difference between my two points was. scenario a) Tager player Fires lightning ball out randomly/spontaneously. scenario b) Tager player waits for an opportunity to fire a sure hit. In BB, spontaneous attacks can help quite a bit, someone told me that Jin's Ice Car was softbanned in Japan, because it can effectively be used spontaneously or "too abusive" by their words. Just trying to help, I don't play Tager, but my friend does and a random Lightning Ball is the bane of my fear of him.
Raiderwarlord99 Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 The difference between my two points was. scenario a) Tager player Fires lightning ball out randomly/spontaneously. scenario b) Tager player waits for an opportunity to fire a sure hit. In BB, spontaneous attacks can help quite a bit, someone told me that Jin's Ice Car was softbanned in Japan, because it can effectively be used spontaneously or "too abusive" by their words. Just trying to help, I don't play Tager, but my friend does and a random Lightning Ball is the bane of my fear of him. I still don't think a random tager shot will really solve anything in this match up. I've tried that approach many times and everytime I did was hit out of it, they blocked it or we traded hits (which doesn't happen to often). You also have to realise that magnetizing her rarely changes anything in this match up. Nu never really needs to jump outside of combo & block strings and it's pretty obvious what will happen to us if we try to use 2D or J.D to drag her in outside of a combo. I could go on & on about what we can't do safely but everyone has already stated the obvious & there's that damn video for more proof. I know some people always say be patient and wait for them to screw up it'll happen eventually but we also have to take into account of what happens when we screw up? What happens if they play a perfect game (Admit it this is Nu's easiest match-up, we work are asses off just trying to close the game while they're just sittin there going on auto pilot. Its no wonder I don't get any damn respect)? Now I'm not saying this match-up is not winnable it is it's just a very up hill battle thats gonna be a long and tedious one & end the end your super proud of yourself or just straight up fustrated and thats includes if you win the match as well
Skye Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 Sucks really. Glad I don't play Tager. All else fails, pick a more capable character.
Raiderwarlord99 Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 I wish I could give him up but I love Tager too much to do it & besides when the next BB comes out and Tager gets everything he needs and more I can say I was there through all the bad times as well as the good.
Skye Posted August 8, 2009 Posted August 8, 2009 I didn't say give him up, just have a pocket character/secondary to cover his worst matches.
Jorrell Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 I havent tried this yet, but maybe this could work. If your desperate for that LAST hit. If you are plaing a good nu, That player knows that if Tager throws out a sledge B from the edge of the screen. He is going to be punishable. So if we get creative we will play on this and bait that Punish drive move. So is it possible to...? Sledge B > RC > Sledge B might not seem like a good aidea to waste %50 but you could possibly get a counter hit, and your getting in...
Drges Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 You can't RC a whiff, if that's what you're asking.
HZMN Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 Sucks really. Glad I don't play Tager. All else fails, pick a more capable character. Uhhh I hate that kind of mentality, but sadly its something that can legitimately applied to this situation which sucks and points out some obvious inbalances at the same time. If this matchup was just slightly balanced in anyway, that option should never exist for a Tager main. Same applies to any horribly lopsided matchups in any other game.
Isorropia Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 The thing that's so wrong with it, is that you'll need to use that backup character in order to fight everything that's not tager or hakumen....thereby making them a main. o.O You can't just say "Oh, pick not-tager for rachel, nu, carl, arakune", because in any tournament setting you could be fighting any of them at any point in time and would hence need to be using your other character just in case.
HZMN Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 What's so wrong with having a back up character? Nothings wrong with having a backup, but you shouldn't be forced into a position to use it just cause the matchup is damn near impossible against anyone that is good
Skye Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 Happens all the time in competitive games. Or at least smash bros.
Isorropia Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 Not quite. It happens in smash brothers because counterpicking is a large part of the game, say, your character might have a weak recovery and so you choose a backup with a good recovery so that you can just get taken to frigate or something and have an incredibly uphill battle. Or your character might beat X and lose to Y, so you choose a backup who can't beat X, but that doesn't matter because they can beat Y, so you can counterpick them if you lose to Y in a fight, but you only need to switch when Y comes up. Tager, on the other hand, loses to EVERYONE.
Osuna Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 Also that kind of talk has no place in a match up thread. Anyone have anything left to contribute?
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted August 9, 2009 Posted August 9, 2009 Let's see....... All I have left to say is study nu like madman to find hole in her assult.
Skye Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 Not quite. It happens in smash brothers because counterpicking is a large part of the game, say, your character might have a weak recovery and so you choose a backup with a good recovery so that you can just get taken to frigate or something and have an incredibly uphill battle. Or your character might beat X and lose to Y, so you choose a backup who can't beat X, but that doesn't matter because they can beat Y, so you can counterpick them if you lose to Y in a fight, but you only need to switch when Y comes up. Tager, on the other hand, loses to EVERYONE. Counterpicks in terms of character advantage plays a huge role in match ups, it's just downplayed in several other fighting games. It's entirely legitimate to select a different character, because your current character is at a far disadvantage. It's not so much a system as it is common sense developed into a system. Would you rather pick up a character who fares a better chance in this particular match up, or stick with Tager and try [<--big emphasis] to overcome highly improbable odds? Wouldn't it make better sense to decide on the former?
Osuna Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 Counterpicks in terms of character advantage plays a huge role in match ups, it's just downplayed in several other fighting games. It's entirely legitimate to select a different character, because your current character is at a far disadvantage. It's not so much a system as it is common sense developed into a system. Would you rather pick up a character who fares a better chance in this particular match up, or stick with Tager and try [<--big emphasis] to overcome highly improbable odds? Wouldn't it make better sense to decide on the former?This has been discussed to death before. Nu can't be counter picked effectively because she has no bad match ups. And counter picking isn't underplayed it is just much much harder for much lower rewards than in other games which is why people don't do it very often. Also you completely ignored the point that the odds are Always against Tager. more on topics. Are there good times to backdash any of Nu's swords? On whiff some of her D stuff looks pretty bad on recovery. I get frustrated with all my projectile blocking giving her more options.
HZMN Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 Counterpicks in terms of character advantage plays a huge role in match ups, it's just downplayed in several other fighting games. It's entirely legitimate to select a different character, because your current character is at a far disadvantage. It's not so much a system as it is common sense developed into a system. Would you rather pick up a character who fares a better chance in this particular match up, or stick with Tager and try [<--big emphasis] to overcome highly improbable odds? Wouldn't it make better sense to decide on the former? Mods can go after me on this one but I don't care. The second you said Smash Bros, you lost almost any credibility you may have had. I'm not attacking the rights to play it competitively, I'm attacking it being compared to other fighters when it is a party game. Even if it was a fighter, your still comparing an unbalanced cluster**** to something that is trying to be balanced. There shouldn't be an endless cycle of counterpicking because X is weak to Y but Y is weak to Z. That just screams inbalance. Now I am not saying that Y shouldn't have disadvantages to X but X shouldn't be able to steamroll over Y either. Not to mention, some of us don't use a secondary that isn't exactly better suited against this matchup anyway. Your logic is saying "Have a higher tier character as backup cause it'll help against that impossible match Tager has". Normally this would be pretty good advice but at a tournament level, you'll likely bump into these matchups more often and at that point your backup might as well be your main. Ultimately my point still stands. You should use your backup if you feel like it should give you a slight edge, not because your main character is 100% crippled against whatever your up against. Anyone else find it extremely odd that Skye is trying to teach us about Tager vs Nu yet he/she uses neither? @Osuna: Backdashing doesn't really help by itself. Might catch them offguard though and the recovery MAY be enough to counter with spark bolt, haven't looked into it though, but possible. I'd be concerned with the sword that comes from behind too.
Skye Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 I know enough that Tager can't beat her. In that case, pick a more capable character. V-13 has no bad match ups, but she has even match ups, and Tager's not one of them. Answer my question instead of dodging it to soft flame me. Would it be smarter to pick a character who stands a better chance, or stick with Tager who you swear can barely manage at all?
Maho Posted August 10, 2009 Posted August 10, 2009 What would be smarter is you stoping to troll this thread, seriously just why do you care about we Tager players think, you obviously just want to hear you are right and we should get another character as backup to play against v13. If you don't understand how someone can play one character despite some really bad matchups, well too bad for you but you should stop posting here, the subject of the tread is the Tager vs v13 matchup, nothing else.
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