H-F Blade Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 This matchup thread doesn't exist yet so I thought I would take the opportunity to do so. What are some good strategies vs Hakumen? I have fought this match a fair number of times but I wouldn't say I'm an expert on it. Here are a number of things that I think can that can pose problems for Jin: - Hakumen has more range than Jin. As a result, this match feels like it needs to be spent pacing in and out of each other's attack range and punishing whiffs. - Hakumen has more HP than Jin. - Hakumen can do a TON of damage from a few simple hits. - Hakumen has counters, meaning if you're just outside of his range, he can counter any sudden movements if you rush in carelessly. That or eat a hit into big combo if he decides to attack instead. - Hakumen 6B stuffs lows. - Hakumen gets meter for doing absolutely NOTHING. This doesn't necessarily mean Hakumen has the advantage, but these are some of the things that really give me a headache. I spend a lot of time pacing back and forth like it's a 3S match because of all the above things. When you get close to him, it's not too difficult to bait people who are trigger happy with his counters. You can also do a fair amount of damage to him as well since he's such a big target. Discuss.
ryokoalways Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 At the beginning of the match, it's ok to go super aggressive on his ass for a few seconds. Reason is because even if he does nail you with something, he can't damage you since he doesn't have enough magatamas to initiate any sort of scary combo yet. Basically, you want to test how much this Hakumen likes to catch and how well he can IB (Be aware that he can get to his second magatama with a few seconds and 2 good IBs). Mash out a block string, do a jump in to see if he is a Hakumen that 6a or likes to catch, etc. Figure out his habits within first several seconds (note this only works up till mediocre play, high level play goes differently simply because I can guarantee you the Hakumen can IB so don't feed him meter by going in like an idiot). The other thing is no matter how good the other Hakumen is at catching, you do not play scared. You have plenty of good frame traps to go against him. Variations of frostbite have different startup. liberal use of 6b in normal block strings. Delayed c follow ups, and so on. I'll list a few things to remember: Zantetsu first hit is high and second low. Learn to block this. This should NOT hit you as an overhead because it's slow, and it's also the only ground move that takes 3 magatamas (ie, you should be able to block it on reaction unless you are completely dazed). 6b, despite what it looks like, is a low. Hakumen's favorite mid range pokes are 5c and jc, with an occasional j2c. Close range it's simply 5a and 2a. If he is on the offensive, add 2b to his list of pokes. Don't try to use your projectile to zone hakumen too frequently. A good Hakumen will recognize quickly, and simply air dash over it and if he doesn't nail you, he is still in equally good positioning with advantage. Be creative with your block strings, please don't 5b 5c 2c 3c or whatever every single time. You are going to get IB and killed. Add delays, change ups, whatever. Just don't do the same block string every single time. Hakumen's entire offense consist of frame traps, ie, it sucks ass. He has one good overhead (zantetsu doesn't count, it's crap as an overhead) in j214c, and it has no follow up so it's one hit and done that cost 3 magatamas. Basically, just sit tight, block low the whole time and look for throws (or just buffer it) and his super slow overheads. Hakumen is low tier because he has essentially no offense. He can do damage, but he can't create it.
Kumlekar Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 You forgot to mention that both of Haku's overheads use three stars. If hes at less that that you don't need to worry about mixup at all. Also, remember that if Haku is countering your projectiles hes not taking chip damage, and if he hits them with his sword, he gains a full star. Basically be careful getting close when he has full meter. If hes low, go to town.
Meever Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 You need to play mixup. You can't cheese your safe pokes because he'll punish your hard.
Killey Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 5D's get stuffed by Haku-men's Drive so don't throw it out too often or get predictable with it otherwise you will get punished. It's also incredibly easy to IB and with Haku's range will get you punished. Throw it a few times to stop his IAD shennanigans but keep in mind that Haku can IAD j.D and counter it. All of Haku's D moves are 1F start ups and has 7 active frames except jD which has 9 active frames, which is reliable enough to stuff 5D with its 20 frame start up and 8 active frames. Ice Wave Super to stuff IAD happy Haku-men's. Can't believe how many people fall for it. Especially, after they get you on the defensive. Don't use 236C for corner oki as Haku can neutral tech and use 2D, 6D to counter it immediately. Just like any other match up though read your opponent and see if they will fall for 236C oki. Rely on 5B/2B for oki games if they are 2.D/6.D your 236C's after a 3C. Haku-men's got a big weakness to Jin's j.B and doesn't have many answers to it, however, do not get predictable with your j.B's as you can be air thrown from it. Getting stuck in the corner with Haku-men blows and if he has enough stars can start doing his hi/low game. Learn to block/counter them as a single corner combo from Haku-men is enough to turn the tide of the match to his favor. Haku's 6A stuffs Jin's IAD j.B. Otherwise apply pressure on Haku up close and he'll crumble.
Skye Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 This matchup makes me wonder why Hakumen is low/bottom tier, I have a really hard time with this match up. The main trick here is to not combo his guard (unless it's faultless). Or else he'll counter or worse--super counter. The big trick for me is to bait a counter or a guard and react from there, akin to programming in C. mem; stage 2 = combos!!! Execute "ICE CARZ--A" if variable "Hakumen Guard" or "Hakumen Counter" = 1 ; execute "retreat" else call "stage 2" end if That's more Visual than C, but you get the point.
ryokoalways Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Hakumen being low tier is a result of getting screwed by arakune and nu. All his other match ups are within 6-4 and extremely manageable. He is not a bad character at all.
qwerty Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 yeah this matchup is pretty even-ish. if i had to contest an advantage i would give it to jin though, since he has four dp's + meterless damage. just hit him with your quick shit, vary your pressure (so you don't eat counters all the time) and you're set. tech traps especially do wonders against hakumen since his only reversal is yukikaze.
H-F Blade Posted August 14, 2009 Author Posted August 14, 2009 Can't Haku-men's 6A stuff j.B if you just jump at him and not IAD? Also, it seems that using 5D as a poke isn't always the smartest thing to do in a spacing war because his 6C has more range AND it comes out faster which means you will be stuck in counter hit stun for the next year or two. When he neutral techs you can try using meaty 5B or doing it early to see if they like to use super counter as a reversal. You can kinda use 2D in the middle of your blockstrings if he's using barrier to push you out since his hitbox is pretty wide.
Killey Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Yes, forget most of the information I posted initially a lot of is outdated now with some discrepancies here and there. 6A is Hakumen's best anti-air normal and will stuff j.B in general but also a well timed air throw will stuff predictable j.B pressures. 6B has low invincibility and will stuff any attack going below his waist. You can vary your pressure string and your j.B's to do cross ups so even if he does try to counter you with D it won't counter because your on the other side of him already. This is really good to do since you can follow j.B with another move and finish up with a combo when you land. However, like I said 6A will stuff j.B but it's good to gauge how the Hakumen player plays. You basically want to stay on top of Hakumen at all times as he doesn't really have much time to react to your pressure and only has a few counters here and there. Patient and defensive Hakumens are more annoying as they will retreat more and look for a means to punish a sloppy rush in. It's at this point you should change play styles and work more on your zoning game. Double jump j.B's are great for this but so is 5D and 2D just have to be careful how you apply them. IAD happy Hakumen's can be punished with 5D, early 2D, Fubuki, or Ice Wave Super. Basically, it's to Hakumen's disadvantage to try to rush Jin when Jin is playing defensively but the downside to doing this is allowing Hakumen to gain Magatama's which is critical for his combo's and rush down game. Which is why in the beginning of the round you want to rush him down as fast as possible while he has no magatama's and has no means to launch an assault if he does get a punish in. The game plan doesn't really change when he does have magatama's but you just have to be more aware of his capabilities at that point. He has a better means to rush you down but if you just block, IB, barrier them he'll deplete his magatama's and be forced on the defensive again. I really don't think this is an even match up and I think this is clearly in Jin's favor he just has the tools to handle whatever play style Hakumen has and can easily turn a hit confirm into good damage. Hakumen can do the same and deal more damage but he gets less opportunities to do that.
Zenoxio Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 Any decent way to approach Hakumen? Air seems to be a bad idea and 236C thrown in front of you while running typically has him counter the projectile and smash your face in. Although if you know they'll counter, you could easily take advantage of that... but most of the time you don't.
ryokoalways Posted August 24, 2009 Posted August 24, 2009 The one thing to keep in mind when facing hakumen is that you cannot assume that you should not do this move or that move because it will get caught. That will just make your offense stagnant. Just vary your approach a lot. Jin has the offensive tools to play a very effective zoning game. Getting in requires some caution, but again, unless you are super predictable hakumen players won't be spamming catch. And once you get in, frame trap the hell out of him. Get in his head and make him afraid to catch. The main thing is to provide a load of variation in your block strings. If you have only 3-4 block strings you will get killed by IB.
Tomoki Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Most Haku's I play, those that are not sitting in one of the corners, Usually go in for the air dash or Grab, I always(or at least try) to counter with A version of Gale and that starts my offensive. My main problem is the inconsistency in the skill level of players I meet, I'll fight 2 or three scrubs, then find a guy who knows what he's doing. Hard to explain in words How I play against him, but I find that Fake outs work wonders, if your dashing in, always wait a second before you attack, (I always start with a basic 5c) They will ALWAYS try and D an obvious assault for counter throw. Although pressuring with 5D is a good idea at a distance. Considering Jins superior Mobility I always stick to the "Run and gun" method. Get in combo or pressure then get out, why? 'Cause in my experience a desperate Haku that looses his range on you tries to go for the air dash, opening themselves up for a nice 626A( Light Gale).
ocdscale Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Considering Jins superior Mobility I always stick to the "Run and gun" method. Get in combo or pressure then get out, why? 'Cause in my experience a desperate Haku that looses his range on you tries to go for the air dash, opening themselves up for a nice 626A( Light Gale). Can you explain this further? Assuming you land a combo that leads to knockdown, why would you then run out? Why not stick to Hakumen?
vellcrif Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 Can you explain this further? Assuming you land a combo that leads to knockdown, why would you then run out? Why not stick to Hakumen? because sticking around may get you hit with his shoulder of stun, or his 6b of bounce the thing you gotta remember with hakumen is that his weaker attacks give openings for his sword,and his sword puts a nasty hurt on enything dumb enof to get in its way also a good hakumen will know when to use his super counter its unblockable,and eny projectile can set it off, like arakunes bugs, or jins spam swords or arctic daggar though if set off buy a projectile, it can be avoided if you double jump fast enof but thats the only way but 3/4ths of hakumens attacks dont have a lot of use aginst gen jen has a lot of natural advantages over hakumen but i have to give the match a 50/50 jin counts on his mixable offence(and sence he has one, most noobs hate him a lot.) wile hakumen is a character that stresses timeing and insight into what the opponent is about to do so it mostly boils down to this who can figure out there opponents habits first
Tomoki Posted September 7, 2009 Posted September 7, 2009 because sticking around may get you hit with his shoulder of stun, or his 6b of bounce the thing you gotta remember with hakumen is that his weaker attacks give openings for his sword,and his sword puts a nasty hurt on enything dumb enof to get in its way also a good hakumen will know when to use his super counter its unblockable,and eny projectile can set it off, like arakunes bugs, or jins spam swords or arctic daggar though if set off buy a projectile, it can be avoided if you double jump fast enof but thats the only way but 3/4ths of hakumens attacks dont have a lot of use aginst gen jen has a lot of natural advantages over hakumen but i have to give the match a 50/50 jin counts on his mixable offence(and sence he has one, most noobs hate him a lot.) wile hakumen is a character that stresses timeing and insight into what the opponent is about to do so it mostly boils down to this who can figure out there opponents habits first Very well spoken, The trick is to keep the opponent guessing, force them to make a mistake. any aerial attack can be countered with A version of Gale. Easy damage for a Haku running in on desperation. Also, as velcriff stated, staying in might now always be a good Idea. Unless your cross ups and mind games are played perfectly. At least in my experience My attempts to put extreme pressure on a good haku ends in about 40-50% of my health bar gone.. =(
RushDownScrub Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 From what I've seen, I.C is good reaction to counters, and j.B beats his j.2C. This match is really just lolz all day, because you can work and work, and with one move he can fry your ass. Fun way to play it is throw lots of swords and bait that reversal, only to throw a slow sword instead and then I.C after for real fun. I.C A is good for freaking him out, I.C B is good for hitting, and I.C C is over kill. Don't waste heat on I.C D though, better for your DP and supers.
Mauver Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 I also find that deliberately whiffing or delaying certain moves to stimulate a drive against Hakumen can be a really effective tactic against the drive-happy types. A 214A from medium range or 214B from long range, ice car to a finish line just short of a countering Hakumen followed up by 5C counter hit into BnB results in much fun and entertainment. Very satisfying.
RushDownScrub Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 Common sense, but keep a really close eye on Haku's meter. The moment you think stars are vanishing, and he happens to be close, throw out a DP. Since all Haku's special can cancel into each other he is really dangerous up close, especially after infinity. ou beat him at range and in the air, and somehow you can beat Snow Storm with a DP, don't know how but I have done it... somehow.
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