Parting Thoughts

[AchedSphinx]

@Anne Your situation with that Chie player reminded me of some things that has occurred to me on occasion. I mostly play online, since that's my thing, but something I learned during my time there is that players, specifically in low-mid skill level, don't want advice. This is my assumption of the situation. If you offer them advice first, or in your case, say why they're doing this or that, then you are being condescending toward them. So the only way you can give them advice to help them improve is that they have to ask you for it first.

So the situation is very strange. It's difficult to help players since their pride will get in the way of asking for advice. Yet when you do, they get pissed because they think you're looking down on them. Of course this isn't common and could be mostly confirmation bias on my part (noticing only the bad stuff and ignoring the good stuff) or it could be specific to an online environment. Hard to say. I don't have enough data to work on.

[Shadowfury333]

It's difficult to help players since their pride will get in the way of asking for advice. Yet when you do, they get pissed because they think you're looking down on them. 

I've experienced that too when trying to help people, and usually the response they give me is either "I just want to have fun, you shoudn't care so much" (i.e. "games are toys" or simply "caring about stuff isn't cool"), "Let me figure it out on my own" (i.e. "games are about learning and/or self-expression"), or "How dare you imply that (I'm a worthless loser because) I don't know everything?" (i.e. "games exist to validate one's position in a social group", "I need to justify my existence by my skill in games", or "games are like work, you have to be good at them to be allowed to do it").

The first two aren't worth worrying about, since the first case clearly demonstrates they are casual and happy about it; and the second case is someone who, if they come around to looking for help, is probably self-motivated enough to find it online. The last one is probably the one people are talking about, since that case involves massive insecurity and anxiety, a lot of which is probably brought on by the stereotypes I mentioned previously, as if that behaviour is perfectly normal and expected in gaming. I've found the best way to deal with the latter category is to make it absolutely clear that they are not seen as worthless for not yet being skilled.

In one particular person I encountered, I ended up doing a mirror match set with them to give them an idea of both how to use their character, and so I could figure out what they were trying to do with that character. I'm not sure how much it helped, but they seemed to be learning fairly quickly from it. The main issue I found is that they were playing a rushdown character (Filia in Skullgirls, plays in a similar mixup pressure style to Jam or Chie) as if she was a footsie character, and it was really hard to phrase that to them without making them feel worse about themselves. Trying to phrase advice to someone who currently thinks they are worth less than dirt is quite challenging; playing with them in a friendly environment to show them how to play better may be more effective.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Shadowfury333

[Orrax]

In my experience, people get angry when you play the mirror match against them, especially if it's for the purpose of "teaching them how to play" their own character. They're generally going to learn more from watching offline play from people who do consistently well from tournaments than from online play anyway, which they'll likely do if they're serious about improving.

Generally speaking, I find it best to offer help only if someone asks for it. Offering help that's not asked for can come across as kind of rude.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Orrax

[Shadowfury333]

In my experience, people get angry when you play the mirror match against them.

Fair point. I should clarify that I was playing the mirror match rather gently. I wasn't just tearing into them all the time, since I wanted to get a feel for their offense as well. That and I don't main the character in question, so any tearing into I could have tried was limited.

Generally speaking, I find it best to offer help only if someone asks for it. Offering help that's not asked for can come across as kind of rude.

Yeah, this is really the best takeaway. If anything is to be offered unsolicited, it would be acceptance regardless of wins or losses.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Shadowfury333

[pokemonblaze234]

@Anne Your situation with that Chie player reminded me of some things that has occurred to me on occasion. I mostly play online, since that's my thing, but something I learned during my time there is that players, specifically in low-mid skill level, don't want advice. This is my assumption of the situation. If you offer them advice first, or in your case, say why they're doing this or that, then you are being condescending toward them. So the only way you can give them advice to help them improve is that they have to ask you for it first.

So the situation is very strange. It's difficult to help players since their pride will get in the way of asking for advice. Yet when you do, they get pissed because they think you're looking down on them. Of course this isn't common and could be mostly confirmation bias on my part (noticing only the bad stuff and ignoring the good stuff) or it could be specific to an online environment. Hard to say. I don't have enough data to work on.

I did tell a person like a couple days ago that he should block(on wake up) because he kept mashing and mashing that it was basically a free win for me, he was like "I do block", then I said on wake up and other stuff, he was like "ok?" or something like that, like, he thought I was "being rude" to him or whatever you guys say, but so on so forth he asked "Did you mean to help me?" and I said yes then blah blah blah he was nice to me.

Anyways, you get the point. I also told a Plat once that run up grab isn't neutral, he took it surprisingly well, but that's BB, lol

[Shadowfury333]

I did tell a person like a couple days ago that he should block(on wake up) because he kept mashing and mashing that it was basically a free win for me, he was like "I do block",

The thing with this is that they probably do block *sometimes*, so for their part they are blocking, the fact that they aren't successfully blocking notwithstanding.

I've typically approached that with "how often are you blocking?", since that isn't at all accusatory. It communicates that I'm assuming they are blocking (especially if they actually are sometimes) and acknowledging they are trying (if they are, if not the question isn't wrong) while still hinting that something isn't quite right. Even if they answer "pretty often" it should get that in their heads to think about blocking more.

Granted, that's more if you don't know the person. I've been specifically called out for not blocking by people I've played with a lot and that's worked fine to help me to block, but that was with people I know.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Shadowfury333

[Zouf]

Sorry but i can't help laughing when I read something like that coming from the USA.

You don't even know what it's like in the rest of the world, really.

Anyway, there are means to keep your "community" (or lack of) alive, through skype, friendlists and this forum. People who love this game will always be willing to play it if you ask them.

Of course you'll probably never reach the level of arcade monsters that live in Japan, but you weren't born there, you don't live there. So there is no point crying over something nobody can help it.

About the supposed toxicity of the P4U community, I've never heard or felt about it at all. I have a bunch of people who play casually the game (amongst other ASW games), and they are nice people. I haven't got hate mails or other shitty behaviour from anyone I've met online in the game, so meh

[pokemonblaze234]

Sorry but i can't help laughing when I read something like that coming from the USA.

You don't even know what it's like in the rest of the world, really.

Persona is ded in europe and the level of play is just bleh, there's good players, but not as good as NA players

[Doonpa]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s462/sh/9657cb40-9ef7-4f62-87b9-6da29282dbab/997823b279b35e92b280e4e624d5f755

So this is something i wrote on my own time, and I feel its relevant to this thread as well since i think it touches on some of Dmac's point and I think it gives a good perspective on fgs in general as well as Persona specifically. 

[pokemonblaze234]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s462/sh/9657cb40-9ef7-4f62-87b9-6da29282dbab/997823b279b35e92b280e4e624d5f755

So this is something i wrote on my own time, and I feel its relevant to this thread as well since i think it touches on some of Dmac's point and I think it gives a good perspective on fgs in general as well as Persona specifically. 

Even tho this might as well be considered off-topic, this has really showed me how great it is to be young and to know what I know now. 

[ThisIsJetto]

@Anne After reading your posts, and listening to your reason of as to why Dmac's perception of the Persona community is what it is, I can somewhat agree with you about things. Sometimes players, especially lower level ones can be extremely rude in the face of advice, I'm sure I've done it before, possibly even unintentionally. The truth is, if you don't put in the effort yourself then you won't make it anywhere significant. Hell, if making it to the top was easy, then it wouldn't be worth it. But... you can't just blame the lower levels for sucking, that's counterintuitive. Not saying that you are by any means, but I'll break it down for you, from my personal perspective.

Straight up, there are very few advanced players who are actually kind people, or at least have manners. My proof of this, was awhile back when a player asked you for advice on a matchup and you basically told him, 'You're not good enough just yet, so I can't help you out.'

There's Bace, who said, "If you aren't good at this game, then there's no point in speaking to me."

How about when most of you blew up on Barzorx on Twitter for giving his opinion? You have to sit down and realize that you're a leader, a representative of a community of people who play a game in a country. One of the representatives anyway. In reality you and some others try to act like a white knight, when really you're being an asshole, and having the community follow suit since you're the "top level". At one point Doonpa left a Skype chat BECAUSE all people did was talk shit. 

You think that's a good example to set? You think that just because you're skilled at the game, you have the right to blatantly disrespect people, even if you subconsciously did it? Another thing, nobody in NA specifically asked anybody to defeat Japan. I'm positive a lot of people want it in their hearts, but don't make up fantasies of people begging you to do things. Don't blame others for a loss that you yourself and others got, just hold it.

Until some of the top players can actually become good at uh, life and socializing, us as a community have a lot of work to do. No matter how good you are, it's never an OK to be a huge fucking dick.

Edited September 5, 2015 by ThisIsJetto
Typos.

[Anne]

I mean I should really not respond to this, but 2 things:

When I say "you're not good enough for this advice" I mean literally people are asking for advice that isn't applicable at their skill level. It happens all the time, people ask me about a MU or situation and they need to understand some things better before looking for those answers. Idk what Bace is up to but that's like, a harsh reality sometimes. This is what I mean by lower level players misinterpreting things or just not understanding what's going on. If I took the time to take every really low level player and walk them through everything up to the question they're asking, I might as well just be a full time FG teacher cause that's all I'll be doing. Walk before you run, etc. I don't really say things like that anymore and I do try, but I will just give shorter tidbits and point players along instead of giving them advice way above their heads.

The Barzorx thing on twitter was whatever. Everybody who was apart of that was being a huge asshole, opinions can be wrong, etc. "I'm just giving my opinion" isn't an excuse to be saying things that are blatantly false or misleading, but somebody doing that doesn't give you the right to go hard on them. I remember I was actually the one telling people to just ignore the dude and forget about it, then everybody involved started getting dumber. The best part was most of the top level people actually did just drop it, but the people below them I was telling to drop it kept on going.

A lot of the top players are fine tbh. The people right below them were talking too much, and the other groups who had fantasies about top players being scumbags to beat fueled off it, I actually left that skype group before Doonpa did even cause it was dumb, a lot of people bailed. This is just more of people thinking like we're some super tight knit scheming people when we're all just good at a video game and hang out. "White Knighting" is one of those phrases that tips me off to people not understanding how different groups of people operate. Twitter has gotten out of control though, I bailed on the site cause the toxicity in the AFGC in general is so fucking insane. Shit's so personal when people are getting worked up over a game, it's time to chill.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Anne

[Poultrygeist]

I had a response in mind, but as someone who is NOT a Persona player, and therefore has never heard of half the names being mentioned in these posts, I feel there's something I need to ask so I can form an educated opinion on the subject.  The whole Barzorx thing actually is something I heard about from friends, but only secondhand information.  I'd like to ask for a more elaborate and hopefully objective take on that.  You, and others so it's not just you, said that he was spreading misinformation by saying objectively untrue things (like on bursting Shadow Labrys super) but I just want to be clear, is this a dispute in playstyle philosophy between players or is there seriously some very untrue things being said and passed off as fact.  Because there's a difference between "this is how I approach the game, it's not the same way that you do but it works for me" and "this widely-known statement is actually untrue because I said so" without giving any real evidence.  Since I'm not fully aware of the situation I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not, but please also consider like I said in the other threads that people who give "misinformation" are not always intending to do so, and may think they're actually saying something of substance (Adachi's "amazing" DP for instance). 

I just want to get a clearer picture before I respond how I originally wanted to.

[Anne]

I had a response in mind, but as someone who is NOT a Persona player, and therefore has never heard of half the names being mentioned in these posts, I feel there's something I need to ask so I can form an educated opinion on the subject.  The whole Barzorx thing actually is something I heard about from friends, but only secondhand information.  I'd like to ask for a more elaborate and hopefully objective take on that.  You, and others so it's not just you, said that he was spreading misinformation by saying objectively untrue things (like on bursting Shadow Labrys super) but I just want to be clear, is this a dispute in playstyle philosophy between players or is there seriously some very untrue things being said and passed off as fact.  Because there's a difference between "this is how I approach the game, it's not the same way that you do but it works for me" and "this widely-known statement is actually untrue because I said so" without giving any real evidence.  Since I'm not fully aware of the situation I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not, but please also consider like I said in the other threads that people who give "misinformation" are not always intending to do so, and may think they're actually saying something of substance (Adachi's "amazing" DP for instance). 

I just want to get a clearer picture before I respond how I originally wanted to.

Titanomachia combos are considered burst safe. There are very specific spots (read like 2) where you can burst, but even those aren't guaranteed, and if she has another 50 meter she can take out some of those. If you do burst during Titano and it's unsuccessful, you're going to die as well. So like, if a SLab is doing the right combos and Titano sequences, you may only have one chance to burst(possibility that chance isn't even there) and if you do burst wrong you're dying. Look at the history of people bursting BKen in tournament during Titano and then losing.

Of course if you primarily fight SLab's who aren't doing the right confirms or Titano sequencing, you might assume there are some parts where it'd be okay to burst because you aren't being punished for them. That's how these things start, you base this off what you've encountered, and if you haven't encountered SLab doing these things you might not know. Again, I really sat this one out, but the argument starts with one person saying something untrue, they get corrected, say that the correction is wrong, get corrected again, "then it's just my opinion", etc. It's a really common thing in fighting game twitter, that's why the jokes about opinions started up.

On the subject of fact vs opinion, something that is not hard fact can still be a known truth. "2B is a good anti-air" isn't something you'd define as a fact the way we're taught these days, but it's a generally believed truth. "Stealing is wrong" for a more extreme example, we all know that's a truth, but if you go by the new textbook definition of things it's just an opinion. Some opinions can still be true or false based on what we know.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Anne

[pokemonblaze234]

About the "you're not good enough for this advice" thing, honestly, I don't see why someone would just say that and not say anything at all to them just because they aren't good enough. I don't see what the point is in just letting the "lower levels" die, I don't see why you wouldn't help them improve. It may as well be time consuming if many players ask in ONE day, but I doubt that will ever happen. Even tho you need to tell them other things before you answer their question, they might as well learn more things in the process of asking that one question. Just the other day I learned alot of things just from asking a person why he thinks Tager vs Nu is T R A S H for Tager, I got more than what I asked for, people took time out of their day to answer my questions, and I learned alot from it.

But in my opinion, saying "you're not good enough for this advice" is just straight bullshit and you should actually HELP the player even if it'll take your time, unless you are in a rush or something like that of course.

[Poultrygeist]

Well the problem isn't with the logic behind the phrase, it's the wording.  There are certain things that won't make sense to someone getting started with the game or someone at intermediate level.  It's like taking a subject in school, you don't start with the advanced classes.  That said you should probably at least attempt to explain it to them before you write them off as being unworthy of your time because they aren't as good at a video game that simulates fights between characters from a glorified dating sim.  

[TheRealDMac]

Sorry but i can't help laughing when I read something like that coming from the USA.

You don't even know what it's like in the rest of the world, really.

You see? This is why we can't have nice things. I'm over here studying and learning and trying to better myself as a person and then people come from everywhere just to laugh at 'Murica and call us ignorant orz. (Kidding, kidding.)

On topic though, ONE FINAL ITEM OF NOTE: 
Anime fighters have always been the redheaded stepchild of the FGC. There are a wide variety of reasons for this, and some of them, like Japan having a larger, more accessible scene and earlier access to everything, we can't fix. Some of them, however, are completely under our control. People who don't like us are just WAITING for an anime player to do something stupid and embarassing so they can hold them up as an example of the scene being a joke. (Of course, there are less and less jerks like this after every positive tournament showing, and we might all know that one person doing something stupid isn't representative of the scene at large, but think about how many people are afraid to get on an airplane when statistically it's the safest way to travel.) Don't be an idiot when all eyes are on you, so that we can continue to gain legitimacy and keep getting godsends like CEOtaku to generate hype.

To be clear, I'm certainly not saying that people can't have fun and be stupid. I'm just saying that there's having fun and being stupid in your hotel room or with your friends, and there's making a fool of yourself on stream or on twitter or in front of a camera or whatever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFwUcEwD4l4

(Sorry, too much military doctrine influencing my thinking. We're foreigners in the rugged, well established nation of Capcom, and everything bad we do will be blown out of proportion, but if we build rapport with the guys in charge we'll eventually be welcomed instead of being tolerated. HEARTS AND MINDS, GUYS, HEARTS AND MINDS.)

[Lord Knight]

This was good to read.

I think one thing people really should keep in mind is that the strong Arc Sys players are accessible. I can't really comment on cliques or player circles, but I really do want to help people out and talk about the games, especially whatever I'm focusing on at the time.

[OGRachel]

Good thread. I feel I can relate to a lot of things here.

As some people may know, I live in Iowa. It's competitive hell. There are no locals. Your best bet at a local is AnimeIowa, and it's FREE. It's once a year and it's free, that's the problem, no one plays fighting games in this state. This is a glaring problem with Persona. I get one tourney a year and it's at some convention where the majority of the people don't even play fighting games. In fact, this year, they had vanilla Arena, still. No one gives a shit. I've never been there, but as someone from Iowa. I can tell you exactly what the tourney would be like.

Yes, my first competitive fighter was Persona. I went serious when Ultimax came out and I got the platinum. I've been playing the game for a year now. I can most certainly notice how much I've improved, crazily improved. Compared to where I was last year. But in the big picture, I didn't get anywhere. Especially being the way I am, I get mad, and it's just a sinkhole after that. I get mad and I get mad and I keep saying how things are "bullshit" or complain about a character that isn't even a bad matchup for my character. My complaints aren't always wrong, but I did it more than I should. I get super salty. I could of course, control this in a local setting, I'm just more likely to rage when no one is around. But, the problem being, what locals? It's Persona, it's Iowa. 

I have three friends I know that play Persona. One is in Iowa City now, away from where I live. The other is my cousin, who has no interest in getting better. Third, being my other friend who doesn't even have his PS3 right now, or for awhile. He's a huge Persona fan but he kinda just picks Minazuki I wail on him with random characters. I only ever feel I can only get so far because I'm stuck in the netplay vortex. Poor vortex too. I can't travel too far and although I kind of wanted to get a local scene started myself the only fighting game people play around here is Smash and that is not anywhere what I'm interested in. Hell, doing an event at the library for the public is free, they have a room in the back for you to use. But I almost don't want to waste my time. All that will happen is I put on a tournament that I won't even end up being in myself and a bunch of noobies wail on each other for a shitty prize. Boring.

Really, I was doomed when I chose to start with Ultimax. No 2.0, and maybe not even a sequel. I'm already making my switch to BB as a backup game/switch to main game if Persona really enters the dark hour but the clock shatters for good. 

Also, since I'm from Iowa, and from one of the smallest towns in Iowa, my internet isn't even the greatest. I'm narrowed to like the same 20 people on netplay, not so good for my play, eh? Add to the fact that I feel almost doomed to remain mediocre at anything I pick up, it's awful. I'll fall for the same run-up-to-me-on-my-wake-up-and-throw-me-on-netplay-over-and-over-because-I'm-shit-at-adapting shtick. People will AoA me all day, not even mixing it up. At the end of the day I don't know what to blame. Me? Netplay? What do I know, I haven't touched a real local.

[Poultrygeist]

One more thing I'd like to say because I missed it earlier...under no circumstances do you EVER say "Don't talk to me unless you're good at this game."  Like, what the FUCK.  As I mentioned prior I barely follow the Persona scene so I have no clue who Bace or whoever is, they could be the best Persona player in the world for all I know, but it doesn't matter.  If you consider yourself a top player, then you must also consider how your actions reflect upon your game and community.  Furthermore, based on how serious many of you are about stamping out misinformation through anecdotal evidence, I would THINK that you'd encourage low level or inexperienced players to go directly to a reputable source, but when you tell someone to not talk to you unless they're a certain skill level then congrats, you have done the exact opposite.  If every high level player did that, then the entire mid/low level community would be nothing BUT anecdotes because nobody would feel like they're able to verify their information through a reputable source.  I'm not saying you're under any obligation to play the shepherd, but I imagine most players are mature enough to know right from wrong.  But more importantly, use some fucking courtesy and get some perspective.  It doesn't matter if you're some random poster on DL or if you're Daigo Umehara or the god damn president of the United States, you're not above someone as a human being just because you play a video game better than they do.  Fuck outta here with that nonsense.

[Radori]

Kinda mad I missed this. 

[OGRachel]

You know I was wondering something

I get mad at this game a lot, and I mean a lot. But everytime I get mad and get off the game for the night or something, sometimes even going as far as RQing, I realize I need to put more effort into the depth of the game.

However, everytime I think of doing this, I think "what's the point". I feel there's 2 things that will happen at this point.

1. I get to work and start getting pretty decent, the game dies

2. I get to work and start getting pretty decent, 2.0 comes out and I have to learn almost an entirely different game.

Like, what's the point? Do I just move to BB until 2.0 or what?

[TheRealDMac]

You know I was wondering something

I get mad at this game a lot, and I mean a lot. But everytime I get mad and get off the game for the night or something, sometimes even going as far as RQing, I realize I need to put more effort into the depth of the game.

However, everytime I think of doing this, I think "what's the point". I feel there's 2 things that will happen at this point.

1. I get to work and start getting pretty decent, the game dies

2. I get to work and start getting pretty decent, 2.0 comes out and I have to learn almost an entirely different game.

Like, what's the point? Do I just move to BB until 2.0 or what?

Do you enjoy BB more than Persona? I personally don't like BB much, to the point where I'm dangerously close to playing CF "for the story." If you're of the same mindset, then why not keep at it until the game dies? There are a couple Skype groups that would probably be happy to help you as long as you kept a positive attitude, and I know you're in the GFaqs sidegame chat. I'm pretty sure some of the people that could add you are in there if you ask. (I'm not in the Persona chat anymore so I can't help directly.) The game may be on its deathbed for tournament play, but there are stubborn netplayers who will stick it out. You can at least get to the point where you can consistently outplay them, and then you can blame lag in good faith instead of out of rage. (Shoutouts to Narukamis with 150 awakened meter and their incoming SB Swift Strike > C Cross Slash > OMC > SB Raging Lion.)

You've certainly improved since the first time we played, by the way, even if you pressed DP literally every time I landed a non-counterhit-Coup :P. Also, extend your pressure with gunshot more against Mitsuru; if you vary the placement in your strings and I don't IB it you can keep me trapped for a really long time unless I risk a DP or spend 25 meter for SB Coup, both of which you can bait since the Coup probably won't be + on block at typical Adachi corner pressure range. (PM/Skype me to continue matchup discussion so we don't go off topic in here.)

[pokemonblaze234]

I still play Persona even tho it's dying, I'm still improving even tho I know that 2.0 won't come out, I'm still having fun with this 1 year old game.
So I don't see why you shouldn't improve, or why you should drop the game, or just stop having fun with it.

EU BB players dodge me, so I can't really play that game anymore :v
And about 2.0, SEGA said no.

[Slaudial]

Oh damn I remember playing against you online.