Jam Kuradoberi General Discussion

[Moogster]

Nice damage on this combo done by Teresa. Only problem is that it uses a max Ryuujin card and an RC and a super. I think even without a super in the end the damage is still good.

Combo done at 1:50:05

http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/v/19363970

[Zouf]

That isn't exactly what I said and what I said was more in line with oldkiller. Also Zato-1 is not the #1 in this game, like at all and is no where near everyone's worst matchup. What I said was more in line with OldKiller in that people are going for stuff that is suboptimal as there are many new tools for Jam to use but people are going for the old stuff and that just doesn't work anymore.

FAB doesn't agree with you.

I don't know, she has one really great tool for me and it is the carded gekirin, which is incredibly quick and can hit cross up if i'm not wrong. It also forces ground tech, which is the main reason it should always be carded. I don't know why people always go for carded Ryuujin, because as you said, it really sucks.

I still intend to main her when the game is released, so i'll see when i get there.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Zouf

[ChaseRLewis]

Nice damage on this combo done by Teresa. Only problem is that it uses a max Ryuujin card and an RC and a super. I think even without a super in the end the damage is still good.

Combo done at 1:50:05

http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/v/19363970

Interesting. I wonder if 6K has good proration in this rather than the absolutely abysmal proraration it had an AC. Noticed a lot of people using it in combo's lately as it seems to be one of her better normals for setting up combo's after puffball. Without the super it was about 60% and about 65-68% with the super. Just the card was about 56-58% so all that meter was just flash. 

Also I'm wondering if it is better to do a 6HS knockdown from 5HS->6K->6HS->MAX charge rather than 2D. Looks like you might be able to set it up with the 6HS special cancel and the 2D one really doesn't give much of anything unless your against a character like Faust or Axl.

The 2H vacuum into 2D->j.2K stuff was pretty cool also as that creates a mixup between that and dash low RC or if you have a card just dash low->card gekirin->combo. 

Those 2D combo's into input dash P tricks in the corner look like they could be juicy and air dash special YRC seems to make you lose all momentum so there could be some tricks there.

Edited October 7, 2015 by ChaseRLewis

[FriskyJacket]

Was watching some replay and notices a jam hit 6h near the corner and the follow up 236P HS wiffed because of how close she was.

Thought to my self " you know canceling 6HS int flip(choujin) could probably allow you to convert at that spot and give a really fancy combo too!"

Further though "Hell her flip is probably a monster in this game combined with yrc's! i cant believe i have noticed anyone using it."

"actually i have notice anyone using it... ever?"

...

checks jams move list.

...

WHY?

...

maybe canceling into parry P K can get a combo of 6hs near the corner?

 

[ChaseRLewis]

Was watching some replay and notices a jam hit 6h near the corner and the follow up 236P HS wiffed because of how close she was.

Thought to my self " you know canceling 6HS int flip(choujin) could probably allow you to convert at that spot and give a really fancy combo too!"

Further though "Hell her flip is probably a monster in this game combined with yrc's! i cant believe i have noticed anyone using it."

"actually i have notice anyone using it... ever?"

...

checks jams move list.

...

WHY?

...

maybe canceling into parry P K can get a combo of 6hs near the corner?

 

Near the corner you can follow up with out cancelling into anything because of the wallbounce on CH otherwise you need to RC it. Machabo has been RC'ing every hit puffball and 6HS into combo and personally I see that being the way to go. Those starters have no proration and deal really solid damage and if you have a gekirin card lead to getting a new card. To be honest choujin's old IAD choujin worked really similar to IAD YRC so it is really just the grounded version that effects her gameplay. I like that 2D->input dash~P will crossup in the corner setting up stuff. Would like to see people experiment more with 4-way mixup options using YRC.

[Moogster]

Damn, I wish I could understand Japanese. I think Umecha and jamtomato where talking something important about Jam.

Also I don't know if it's relevant basing on the "google translation on this tweet, but it was saying something about rumors on parry?

twitter.com/eSR_GG/status/652452611568766978

Edited October 9, 2015 by Moogster

[ryokoalways]

Before looking at the tweet, you need to know there are two versions of parry.

1. Empty parry- 1-8f parry, 9f on follow-up or cancel into fd/dash/etc.

2. attack cancel parry- 1-8f parry, 9f on follow-up but no cancel into fd/dash/etc

The idea they are looking into right now is jcc parry cancel, which was first used with makoto in BB. In this instance, you jump cancel a move (2d), then cancel the jump with parry. In that manner, you are not cancelling from an attack into parry, but from jump into parry, which should give you empty parry. If that's does work, any attack that is at least lvl1 (higher is safer of course) and can be jump cancelled should be good for jcc parry cancel pressure.

Edit: To clarify, this has not been confirmed as valid. It's something they will be checking on.

Edited October 9, 2015 by ryokoalways

[ChaseRLewis]

Before looking at the tweet, you need to know there are two versions of parry.

1. Empty parry- 1-8f parry, 9f on follow-up or cancel into fd/dash/etc.

2. attack cancel parry- 1-8f parry, 9f on follow-up but no cancel into fd/dash/etc

The idea they are looking into right now is jcc parry cancel, which was first used with makoto in BB. In this instance, you jump cancel a move (2d), then cancel the jump with parry. In that manner, you are not cancelling from an attack into parry, but from jump into parry, which should give you empty parry. If that's does work, any attack that is at least lvl1 (higher is safer of course) and can be jump cancelled should be good for jcc parry cancel pressure.

Edit: To clarify, this has not been confirmed as valid. It's something they will be checking on.

Assuming this exists here are some numbers.

In the older games her S button and 2D were all lvl.3's this means they would have 16 frames of block stun.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Attack_Attributes

So with perfect execution you could execute your normal on frame 10 meaning a perfectly executed lvl.3 parry cancel would make a perfectly executed lvl.3 move +6 and a perfectly executed lvl.2 +3 as you have to deduct 1 frame for the jc itself. 

If that is true 2H->2D would be pretty scary with the j.2K mixup and jc Parry low options. Also f.S being +6 or +3 would be pretty scary.

 

Edited October 11, 2015 by ChaseRLewis

[Elemenope]

Assuming this exists here are some numbers.

In the older games her S button and 2D were all lvl.3's this means they would have 16 frames of block stun.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/Attack_Attributes

So with perfect execution you could execute your normal on frame 10 meaning a perfectly executed lvl.3 parry cancel would make a perfectly executed lvl.3 move +6 and a perfectly executed lvl.2 +3 as you have to deduct 1 frame for the jc itself. 

If that is true 2H->2D would be pretty scary with the j.2K mixup and jc Parry low options. Also f.S being +6 or +3 would be pretty scary.

 

Just a note - they would have 13f of blockstun, not 16 if transposed from +R to Xrd (Level 3 in +R is equivalent of Level 2 in Xrd). So no being +6.

[KurlyBandit]

I know she has only been out for a short time and optimal combos haven't been found yet but from what I'm seeing her damage output leaves a lot to be desired. She doesn't really get much more than Chipp does in a corner combo. It's almost like they were too scared of her potential to give her good damage despite Sin existing.

[ChaseRLewis]

I know she has only been out for a short time and optimal combos haven't been found yet but from what I'm seeing her damage output leaves a lot to be desired. She doesn't really get much more than Chipp does in a corner combo. It's almost like they were too scared of her potential to give her good damage despite Sin existing.

I would like to see people use her 6K->6HS combo string more. I am wondering if in the corner you can do something like 5HS->6K->6HS->Parry P~K->air combo into card gekirin get a new card.

I know 5HS->6k->6HS works and 6HS is special cancellable, but not sure how people have explored its potential enough. Also since grounded 6HS knocks down against characters that you don't have a hard time getting close too it might be smart to do combos into 6HS->MAX card so your next hit can HURT. Her max card combo's deal 60%+ meterless.

2HS not being jump cancellable and not vacuuming on air hit when combined with her small Parry P hitbox are honestly her biggest issues for converting off random hits. That was #R greatest asset being able to convert any random hit into 3 special kicks -> RC -> 3 special kicks for decent damage so while her high end damage wasn't the best her average damage was pretty high for random conversions. Not being able to do that any more because of the low hit stun on her burnkick and not being able to do an air pursuit because of how quick they tech from burn kick is also an issue.

[9:02 PM]

I know she has only been out for a short time and optimal combos haven't been found yet but from what I'm seeing her damage output leaves a lot to be desired. She doesn't really get much more than Chipp does in a corner combo. It's almost like they were too scared of her potential to give her good damage despite Sin existing.

 

Damage aside, it's starting to look more and more to me like they just shit the bed this time around. More than half of her move set has either been nerfed in some significant way, or was removed entirely. Some of it was inevitable because of the engine changes, but they should have compensated by giving her new options. Hopefully they make some changes before the console release, but they certainly have their work cut out for them.

It feels like most of the time when confronted with something they or the community deems cheap it's 50/50 whether it will get changed or allowed to rock, but there has definitely been a concerted effort across all of their titles for the last couple of years to nerf or eliminate strong defensive options, which makes the hackjob they did on her parry seem obvious in hindsight.

[Moogster]

Basically her XrdR version right now is too honest.

[Dreiko]

I have been looking into Jam and I'm liking what I'm seeing, I didn't use her before so I don't know all the differences and I see people having a mostly negative image of her, I guess she was really great before cause she seems pretty cool to me now. Speedy but stubby so always needing to be close to do anything. I like that kind of playstyle.

 

The standout of what I have learned so far is that 6H is apparently low-invuln according to machabo. It also seems to lead to a ton of damage on CH. It brings back memories of my HOS fafnir that make me wanna use her lol.

Also the way her parry works now is interesting too. Are the MAX level cards any good though? I almost never see people go for them. I guess they're just too hard to amass. Maybe RCing a combo ender for one would be viable? Her meter gain seems pretty good.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Dreiko

[ChaseRLewis]

I have been looking into Jam and I'm liking what I'm seeing, I didn't use her before so I don't know all the differences and I see people having a mostly negative image of her, I guess she was really great before cause she seems pretty cool to me now. Speedy but stubby so always needing to be close to do anything. I like that kind of playstyle.

 

The standout of what I have learned so far is that 6H is apparently low-invuln according to machabo. It also seems to lead to a ton of damage on CH. It brings back memories of my HOS fafnir that make me wanna use her lol.

Also the way her parry works now is interesting too. Are the MAX level cards any good though? I almost never see people go for them. I guess they're just too hard to amass. Maybe RCing a combo ender for one would be viable? Her meter gain seems pretty good.

Midscreen if she ends a ground combo with 6HS or gets a counter-hit S-puffball it seems you can safely charge a MAX card. The uppercut and flame kick both lead to a lot of damage 50-60% meterless but the dragon kick one is very situational and doesn't allow combo extensions without spending meter to RC it. If you RC'd a 6HS in the corner you might be able to get one from a 6HS but meter would probably be spent better on actually getting the extra damage. Kaqn was going for them. Every Jam is still trying to do their own thing and the optimal way to handle getting cards and ender her combo's isn't exactly agreed upon yet. There is definitely some more potential in her than we are seeing the question is just if that potential is enough to actually make her a good character. I'll play her regardless as I just like the character.

 

[Dreiko]

 

Midscreen if she ends a ground combo with 6HS or gets a counter-hit S-puffball it seems you can safely charge a MAX card. The uppercut and flame kick both lead to a lot of damage 50-60% meterless but the dragon kick one is very situational and doesn't allow combo extensions without spending meter to RC it. If you RC'd a 6HS in the corner you might be able to get one from a 6HS but meter would probably be spent better on actually getting the extra damage. Kaqn was going for them. Every Jam is still trying to do their own thing and the optimal way to handle getting cards and ender her combo's isn't exactly agreed upon yet. There is definitely some more potential in her than we are seeing the question is just if that potential is enough to actually make her a good character. I'll play her regardless as I just like the character.

 

I was thinking of doing something along the lines of doing a BnB which ends in the parry rekka (46P-P) which you can't really do much more off of, then rcing that and getting a max card. I see a lot of Jam players RCing various things like a regular ryuujin for minimal extra damage (and sometimes no knockdown either!) so I'm thinking if instead they had been using this meter to procure max cards they'd be doing much better. So far the only really good use of rc I've seen is off of a grab since she gets a card and a combo that can lead to more cards and knockdown from it or rcing j2K for a good 50-50/confirm.

[Moogster]

I just saw Umecha a few days ago do Throw(1hit)>RC>Charge>6k>combo and it had big damage. I think starting a combo with 6k is actually better than starting it with the usual ones.

LOX also just did a series of tweets regarding Jam though I don't understand them. (Just knew because of auto-translate in Twitter)

Dunno if I can post those here though.

Edit:

I thought LOX stopped playing Jam like Teresa? He's at 22Dan now though. Too bad he doesn't play at Mikado so we can't see any new tech they actually have discovered.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Moogster

[Martikol]

Aside from the fact that Goldenrody isn't posting any new vids recently., and DL had a little issue.

I am not seeing any Jam vids at all. kinda depressing actually =(

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Aside from the fact that Goldenrody isn't posting any new vids recently., and DL had a little issue.

I am not seeing any Jam vids at all. kinda depressing actually =(

If you really want to find footage, Fogelstorm rips the Mikado stream archives and puts them on his youtube channel. They're usually 7 hours long but if you look for Jam footage, you'll find it. Like this match I found by randomly clicking around an archive

Edited October 23, 2015 by RurouniLoneWolf

[Moogster]

Aside from the fact that Goldenrody isn't posting any new vids recently., and DL had a little issue.

I am not seeing any Jam vids at all. kinda depressing actually =(

There aren't actually any intersting Jam vids for the past 2 weeks. Nothing from even the Mikado stream. No new tech or anything that might help Jam whatsoever.

It would only be interesting if we get to see LOX play since right now he got 22-Dan.

Teresa seems to have given up. He hasn't played since the 17th.

[Martikol]

I'm just saying, when the game came out we had a surplus of Jhonny and a few Jack-O's. Now that the dust has settled, we still have a surplus of Jhonny's while Jack-O really fell. When Jam came out, we had a few vids here and there but not really and major vids. I know Jam isn't good in this version, but is she THAT not good?

 

 

(Obv i'm putting too much thought in to this but w/e)

[Zouf]

No she is not good.

Well there are a few strong Jam in the Mikado streams, so you might want to check them out.

But the character potential looks really bad. She definitely needs more tools for mixup, damage and okizeme.

[Moogster]

Actually the ones in Mikado aren't that good. Teresa, like I said up top, I think gave up on her already. He hasn't played since the 17th.

The ones I know that we should be seeing but there no vids are LOX who is at 22Dan and GURE who's at 21Dan. Problem is, both don't play at Mikado.

Well there was one time when GURE did play at Mikado, but that was a total disaster. He got bopped from 21Dan to 19Dan and lost 0-20 I think to an Axl. I think it was even more than that.

I know Jam isn't good in this version, but is she THAT not good?

Yep. She is really really not good. 

[ChaseRLewis]

Yeah they need to giver her some better ways to confirm her damage. I see jam's getting hits but it just requires way to much resources and a solid lucky hit off certain starters to get anything of substance. So many random hits into almost no damage.

If they are going to make her so reliant on cards for reward they need to drastically reduce card YRC in fact I'd say give her the card on like frame 10. There is definitely more to her than we are seeing now, but it isn't going to be good enough to make up for the shit properties of a lot of her movies.

 

 

[Zouf]

They are strong in Mikado, it's just that they are against the strongest GG players in the world there, so of course they get bodied because the character is shit.

At least they are strong enough to show what the character is capable of.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Zouf