[Other: Q&A] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Questions and Answers

[[SpA]Relentless]

Rachel's Astral sucks, seriously. It does have a few hard to escape setups(if you don't know how to escape them)but I wouldn't bother with them really. Comboing into it is also possible (using a combination of frog and pumpkin), but very very impractical. In any situation you could combo into Astral, you can combo into BBL as well, but it's easier, safer and will also get you the kill.

The only way of comboing into it midscreen I heard of (never tried, never will) is doing this:

Pumpkin out and floating over opponent (takes 3 winds):

(opponent blocks)6c(1) > j.214a > 3d (pumpkin is blocked) > (land) > 3c(3) (opponent gets hit) > 222b 8d (pumpkin hits) 3d (pumpkin hits) (frog hits) (astral hits)

In the corner you can probably skip the whole setup if you get pumpkin + frog oki and just do the latter part of the combo.

(To be honest, you shouldn't even get Astral at all because Rachel likes to use heat for combos and defense.)

Edited October 9, 2011 by [SpA]Relentless

[gli]

lol sword iris no-tech punish

I wonder what other little oddities there are.

Matsu seems to like 3C 8D midscreen though.

Edited July 2, 2011 by glirandly

[André]

Ok guys, I always wanted to play Rachel but I never understood her. I mean, she is really complex, but interesting. So, what should be learned first? And after? [Like an order. Doesn't need a long explanation, just what should be done.]

Sorry if I'm asking in the wrong thread.

[Kuuhaku]

Ok guys, I always wanted to play Rachel but I never understood her. I mean, she is really complex, but interesting. So, what should be learned first? And after? [Like an order. Doesn't need a long explanation, just what should be done.]

Sorry if I'm asking in the wrong thread.

Start off with learning her BnBs. Rachel's combos are probably the easiest things about her.

To be honest, if you've never dealt with zoning before you might want to mess with Lambda a bit so you understand the concept of zoning and spacing. Rachel's zoning and neutral game is much more complicated than most of the cast, so it might be rather difficult to get the hang of it at first. You have a lot more free form, but also a lot more room to mess up.

It's important to learn spacing with 2A/5B/6B/6A as those are the moves you'll be sticking out the most. Rod placement and using cannon shots will take a lot of time to get used to. Also, pumpkin usage and wind management are also things that take a long time to master. You can either mess around in casuals to see if you can learn on the fly or mess with her tools in training/arcade mode so you get some idea of how they're supposed to be used.

[kotokot]

Ok guys, I always wanted to play Rachel but I never understood her. I mean, she is really complex, but interesting. So, what should be learned first? And after? [Like an order. Doesn't need a long explanation, just what should be done.]

Sorry if I'm asking in the wrong thread.

bnbs, corner pressure with frog, mixups.

[André]

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

[YukiBlue]

Say I want to pick up Rachel, can someone tell me what is essential to learn right away? Top 3? Point me in the optimal direction!

[tofurr]

Start off with learning her BnBs. Rachel's combos are probably the easiest things about her.

To be honest, if you've never dealt with zoning before you might want to mess with Lambda a bit so you understand the concept of zoning and spacing. Rachel's zoning and neutral game is much more complicated than most of the cast, so it might be rather difficult to get the hang of it at first. You have a lot more free form, but also a lot more room to mess up.

It's important to learn spacing with 2A/5B/6B/6A as those are the moves you'll be sticking out the most. Rod placement and using cannon shots will take a lot of time to get used to. Also, pumpkin usage and wind management are also things that take a long time to master. You can either mess around in casuals to see if you can learn on the fly or mess with her tools in training/arcade mode so you get some idea of how they're supposed to be used.

This, Yuki. :3

[YukiBlue]

Good stuff. Messed around with her in Randoms today and really enjoyed fooling around.

Thanks.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Some random thoughts from me after casual session from yesterday:

1) How do you feel about using 5B as a poking tool? I always thought it was a bad idea, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that's it's actually fairly good.

It has fast startup (8f, only other 5B that is faster is Jin's with 7f, most others are worse), has decent range (for Rachel), a good hitbox (gust of wind doesn't have a hurtbox), doesn't have foot attribute (so it beats out attacks that your other main poke, 2A, would lose against, eg Noel 2D, Jin 6B etc.), is airunblockable, jumpcancelable, a great combo starter (can be hitconfirmed into an aircombo on air CH or into 6BD 3C8D on the ground with some training) and leads to all her pressure. Only real downside is the large recovery on whiff. On block it's also unsafe but you can chain it into 6B to make it safe (or 3C9D but depending on the matchup you might not want to be that close to the enemy in a neutral situation).

2) Do you use lobelias for zoning if you don't have a pumpkin out? I find that (over)using them for this purpose gets me killed more often than it helps me. In the future I'll try to only use A lobelia for zoning and focus more on getting pumpkin out so I can use B/C lobelia more safely.

3) Playing against Hell CPU unlimited Hakumen/Nu to get rid of autopilot summoning but risking getting bad habits - yes or no?

Edited October 23, 2011 by [SpA]Relentless

[TD]

my thoughts.

1) 5b is great... on paper. you look at it and think 'wow why isnt this move used' well... despite all its good points, the big problem is the range, and using wind to improve the range can be detrimental to hitconfirming depending on the matchup. this, l feel, is the reason 5b is not her go-to poke in neutral. that and the recovery.

2) this is matchup specific and lobelias can be really good at harassment when you have wind. litchi for example is a char i'd use wind lobelias on fullscreen for two reasons: fullscreen staff litch can either run to midrange with staff, turtle or set staff. the latter two allows for a quick winded (delay wind works wonders) lobelia to her face. oh hit or block you can 'ride' the wind with (IAD) tk iris and be in her face (good w/wind) or summon (ok).

236a in particular stays out a long time, making it hard to punish, even harder with 5d; this move is my go-to for anyone who likes to run/IAD in, but are out of my normals range. also good for whiff punishing.

[TD]

continued...

all in all lobelias can be good especially on people who need time to set up stuff (mu especially is vulnerable), overly turtling players (me :razz: ), and characters who can fly everywhere (I may be wrong about the last one. l know valk and tao have some trouble). l

3) they know the counter to your counter. other than being really annoying, l dont think they'll be of much use if youre already good. they block worse than americans.

but anyway, yea, feel free to correct me on anything.

[[SpA]Relentless]

1) The thing is, I didn't just look at frame tables and thought to myself "hey 5B looks awesome". I've been trying to use it more often in latest matches instead of 2A and it's working well, especially as a way to strike through the opponents holes in his pressure. I wasn't too sure about using it as a poke in neutral w/o pumpkin support, that's why I asked here. I'll test it more in the future.

2) My main problem with B/C lobelia is that if I guess wrong, I'll eat a lot of damage and lose my position (like Ragna running under B lobelia). A lobelia is great because it has less recovery than B/C but can be manipulated with wind to cover angles that B/C lobelia normally would.

I'm probably just too careless and overuse 236B and j.236B. The latter has a useful angle but it is still kind of awkward. I should focus on grounded lobelias more.

3) That's true, you won't learn how to mixup and open up an opponent. Stuff like 236A rolltech punish in the corner, 3C > frog > block (frog hits opponent cause he is stupid), pressure reset with 3C9D into 5A CH always works.

Thing is you can't just do your standard sj > summon pumpkin > wind down against the CPU cause it reads your inputs and counters you everytime. You actually have to play really patient and careful when trying to summon and zone so I thought it was useful.

[kotokot]

1)5B is awesome, it lacks range, but have no vulnerable box extending, for example it can beat ragnas 5B or clash with dp. And pretty good AA sometimes. But you can't whiff it, either you are dead.

2)Winded lobelias ftw. In most matchups i use 236A(D) instead of 6B. 236B can hit running Ragnas on reaction with wind. Lobelias can be used as AA too.

[pikdum]

I would like to talk pro cat chair strats. Could someone clue me in on some standard strings that you can ib into cat chair reversal? It might be a good idea to compile a list similar to the tager ib cmd throw list on their boards.

Example

vs bang:

2c(ib2c)623b

5d(ib2c)623b

Edited October 24, 2011 by pikdum

[Kuuhaku]

Relentless;1176278']Some random thoughts from me after casual session from yesterday:

1) How do you feel about using 5B as a poking tool? I always thought it was a bad idea, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that's it's actually fairly good.

It has fast startup (8f, only other 5B that is faster is Jin's with 7f, most others are worse), has decent range (for Rachel), a good hitbox (gust of wind doesn't have a hurtbox), doesn't have foot attribute (so it beats out attacks that your other main poke, 2A, would lose against, eg Noel 2D, Jin 6B etc.), is airunblockable, jumpcancelable, a great combo starter (can be hitconfirmed into an aircombo on air CH or into 6BD 3C8D on the ground with some training) and leads to all her pressure. Only real downside is the large recovery on whiff. On block it's also unsafe but you can chain it into 6B to make it safe (or 3C9D but depending on the matchup you might not want to be that close to the enemy in a neutral situation).

2) Do you use lobelias for zoning if you don't have a pumpkin out? I find that (over)using them for this purpose gets me killed more often than it helps me. In the future I'll try to only use A lobelia for zoning and focus more on getting pumpkin out so I can use B/C lobelia more safely.

3) Playing against Hell CPU unlimited Hakumen/Nu to get rid of autopilot summoning but risking getting bad habits - yes or no?

1) 5B is okay at neutral. Not a lot of people will smack you in the face for whiffing it as long as you're not using it at a really bad range. You really have to pay attention to what distance you're at. 2A is more safe because it chains into itself on whiff.

2) You shouldn't be guessing with cannons. You should be using them depending on the situation. Cannons are actually a good way of safely getting out pumpkin, which is how I use them... not the other way around. Pumpkin is a much more important tool than cannons. You can also wind B and C cannons to cover angles (for example, winding B cannon down can also be a way to stop approaches).

3) No. CPU are kind of stupid and always do the same things over and over again with no ability to adapt other than it sometimes cheats and reads your inputs. For example, U Hakumen... if you get him full screen, you can beat him by just spamming C cannons at him and occasionally cancelling that into Sword Iris because he'll just jump in place until he dies.

Pikdum- If you IB Bang's 2A, it puts him at a really huge risk of getting 2C CHed and there's not much he can do to punish you for it. huey explained to me one time why, but I forgot. I think it has to do with how all of Bang's gatlings from 2A are not gapless on IB.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Bohemian Polka

[pikdum]

Thanks for that tidbit polka, I would really like to know what other gatlings in this game can be exploited. I'm going to start compiling a list on my own. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Tari]

Thanks for that tidbit polka, I would really like to know what other gatlings in this game can be exploited. I'm going to start compiling a list on my own. Any help would be much appreciated.

Unless I'm greatly mistaken (I could be, so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong), you can look through the frame data and figure out what you can cat chair this way:

First, remember that cat chair gains guard point against strikes on frame 3, which means that 3 frame gaps* are big enough to chair.

Let's say move A gatlings into move B.

If move A has an attack level of 2, then it causes 13 frames of blockstun on the ground.

If move B has a startup value of 12 frames, then A > B is gapless on normal block, and a 2 frame gap on IB. You cannot chair this.

• normal block: 13 - 12 = +1
  
• instant block: 13 - 12 - 3 = -2
  
  
  
  If move B had a startup value of 13 frames, however, then while A > B is still gapless on normal block, it's a 3 frame gap on IB, which means that you can cat chair move B if you IB move A.
  
  • normal block: 13 - 13 = +0
    
  • instant block: 13 - 13 - 3 = -3
    

  ---

  A practical example would be Rachel's very own 5B > 5C gatling.

  5B is level 3, and causes 16 frames of blockstun.

  5C has 17 frames of startup.

  [*]normal block: 16 - 17 = -1

  [*]instant block: 16 - 17 - 3 = -4

  5B > 5C therefore has a 1 frame gap on normal block, and is incredibly unsafe with a 4 frame gap on IB. You can IB 5B and easily insert cat chair before 5C.

  This is basically the reason that 5B > 5C is such a dangerous blockstring. That 1 frame gap on normal block means that anyone with a 1-frame DP, super reversal, or counter/guardpoint/parry can reversal out between 5B and 5C even on normal block.

  ----

  *note: when I say X-frame gaps, I mean X frames including the first frame that the opponent's next move will go active. So a 3 frame gap is a gap where, on the 3rd frame, the opponent will hit you. This is why I say 3 frame gaps can be chaired, but not 2 frame gaps. I'm not sure if this is the universal way to discuss frame gaps, but I assume so.

  ----

  edit: I want to point out that basically no blockstring can be IB cat chair'd in the next game, due to the delayed guard point.

  edit 2: adjusted the math to only represent frame gaps; much cleaner looking math, now, if not quite as detailed.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Tari

[gli]

Ah. I was going to do that same analysis when I got back from class but yeah good job :V

Yes, Cat chair is dead in EX due to delayed guard point. That doesn't mean it's entirely useless though (it's butt though). I would probably still use it in tandem with pumpkin in neutral for interesting results.

IB > 5A is probably the thing to do for punishing holes in blockstrings.

Edited October 24, 2011 by glirandly

[kotokot]

Bangs 5C "hits crouching opponent on 24F"

catchair is dead, i think i'll use it only for AA purpose(hakumen j.2C/valk j.C) and sometimes in blockstrings(lol noel 2D).

[pikdum]

Thanks tari, that was super helpful. I was already looking at frame data to find holes but seeing it broken down made it much more clear. Hella lame that this won't work in csex.

[[SpA]Relentless]

2) You shouldn't be guessing with cannons. You should be using them depending on the situation. Cannons are actually a good way of safely getting out pumpkin, which is how I use them... not the other way around.

Tried this out myself yesterday and you are right.

Against really aggressive players playing chars with good pokes (Jin, Ragna), this is right now the ONLY way for me to get out a pumpkin safely :/

You have to be really careful though cause one whiffed cannon =

And I suck at being careful...

Speaking of pumpkin, what are your ways to get one out?

I noticed yesterday that most of the match I'm desperately trying to get some space and summoning pumpkin when it's unsafe, and I get smacked in the face for it.

I most of the time do some sort of dj > pumpkin > wind down or get the opponent fullscreen with a combination of 236A + wind, then pumpkin. Against slower chars like Hakumen it's easier (IABD pumpkin), but what do you do against aggressive chars?

[Deikan]

Hello, I'm new to this game. I started going into challenge mode with her and I'm having a had time using the wind and buffering her Heat (super) BBL at the same time. Everytime I do it, the wind just pushes them out of range and the heat whiffs. Any advice or tips that could help.

ps. I main her on pad btw.

[Tari]

Inputs for winded BBL are typically along the lines of 632147D6C or 63214D6C. It takes practice, but it's not too hard once you do it a dozen times or so.

[Kujikawa]

Tried to pick up Rachel in CS1... Time out wins against level 20s. Dropped.

I'm not really liking Plat at the moment, so I'm looking at Rachel again. I believe to get the best match up experience is to play the character yourself.

Not like I'm going to main her or anything, but I want to get to know her a bit more (I got some bad habits against her).

My question is how she is in EX. My copy is yet to arrive and I'm not sure if these Tutorial/Mix-Ups threads are still available to her in extend.

Does she good potential in EX or has been nerfed enough to be put in C tier (I saw a Tier List of her there).

Thanx. (I swear if Hex replies to this post about me subbing Tsubaki....)