kriaser Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Double posting again, but after watching some http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9118814 Around 5m50s, or so, the Lambda does normal sweep > 236B then does a 236D~C saw blades. It doesn't combo (maybe it will on a RC?) but it set them up for breaking primers.
Skye Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 No, it shouldn't be an overhead. It is air unblockable though.
germanturkey Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 No, it shouldn't be an overhead. It is air unblockable though. ah. thanks for clearing that up. cause i just watched a vid of Nu vs Litchi and it seemed it hit through on crouching block. i guess the Litchi just gave up blocking after the 4dd. air unblockable is nice. if you can zone them into the right position with 214d its almost a free 2k.
Antihippy Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 No, I'm pretty sure it can be blocked, but only with barrier. Haven't really seen any Lambs try it after 214D. Mostly just 2D.
germanturkey Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9124143 combo at 1:45 is pretty neat. i wonder if you could keep that up with better positioning. and did i ever mention i love the commentator?
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 seems like theres nothing to fear with 3k reversal gravity damage on hakumen.. so be interesting from now on.
kriaser Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9124143 combo at 1:45 is pretty neat. i wonder if you could keep that up with better positioning. and did i ever mention i love the commentator? I dont think the positioning could of been better. You can't really 6DD > TK saber, so the 2DD would of been the best choice. I thought the hit box was shortened, but it doesn't seem that way at all for swords. Besides, a new 3.5k corner combo found for Lambda, she's gaining ground again in the tiers.
germanturkey Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9124143 plus it helps that she won the tournament. that first Tager match was painful though. haha. i thought they were supposed to remedy that. though the 720 did do 66% damage to her..
kriaser Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9124143 going back to this video, to get that loop combo, you only need to end a combo in 214D near a corner, you can then RC for placement and continue it.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9124143 plus it helps that she won the tournament. that first Tager match was painful though. haha. i thought they were supposed to remedy that. though the 720 did do 66% damage to her.. there is no way to fix tager match up except making the zoners rachel CS tier... its a character flaw that exist in many fighting games... Grapples has always had trouble vs zoners. Unless you make the grapple extreme gay and zoner extreme weak there is no remedy.
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Slide head would fix the problem. The main thing isn't that they failed at fixing it. The main thing is that they didn't even try to fix it. All the buffs were on the offensive end, but tager is still utter shit in terms of defense and zoning. He can definitely kill you once he gets in now, but if nu player plays decently tager isn't going to get it. The whole sickle into ground spike also seems like it would be a legit way to slowly wear tager's massive primer count down thanks to him being basically a stationary target, although this may still need testing The only new thing that's really worth mentioning is that backdashing tager is bad for nu because of her nerfed backdash distance. Nu got emerald bustered during backdash.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Slide head would fix the problem. The main thing isn't that they failed at fixing it. The main thing is that they didn't even try to fix it. All the buffs were on the offensive end, but tager is still utter shit in terms of defense and zoning. He can definitely kill you once he gets in now, but if nu player plays decently tager isn't going to get it. The whole sickle into ground spike also seems like it would be a legit way to slowly wear tager's massive primer count down thanks to him being basically a stationary target, although this may still need testing The only new thing that's really worth mentioning is that backdashing tager is bad for nu because of her nerfed backdash distance. Nu got emerald bustered during backdash. Slide head would just make everything gay.. not just vs zoner but everyone... unblockable ground BS..... Thats isn't fixing its making an imbalance attack broken.. E.g. SLide head didn't fix his match up vs Bridget ^^, aerial summons for the win.
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah but nu has landing recovery. And slide head didn't make everything gay alone. Slidehead + new heat knuckle made everything gay. Slide head on tager wouldn't break anything imo. Not to mention lack of hammerfall cancel, and different teching system, so all the problems are basically mediated or non-existent.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Yeah but nu has landing recovery. And slide head didn't make everything gay alone. Slidehead + new heat knuckle made everything gay. Slide head on tager wouldn't break anything imo. its probably the wrong place but slide head is broken... there isn't a need to further discuss where a character will be broken or not.. Heat has a different level of epic brokeness due to its large tension gain plus okizeme followed after. You know after slide head a character would be immoblized on the character for god knows how long given tager all the time he needs to hammerfall cancel into combo.. which is utterly silly even from full screen. Slide head is not the alternative that achive balance.
Antihippy Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Tager doesn't have giganter, so no unblockable bullshit from him. ^_^
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 You have to give me an argument as to why putting slide head on tager, right now, would be broken. He can only punish you for doing for zoning incorrectly. I gave arguments (the lack of heat knuckle, hammerfall cancel, and the different ground techinc system). The insane meter gain off heat knuckle isn't there, the crazy oki game isn't there, the spam to get closer also isn't there. This wouldn't break anything.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 You have to give me an argument as to why putting slide head on tager, right now, would be broken. He can only punish you for doing for zoning incorrectly. I gave arguments (the lack of heat knuckle, hammerfall cancel, and the different ground techinc system). The insane meter gain off heat knuckle isn't there, the crazy oki game isn't there, the spam to get closer also isn't there. This wouldn't break anything. the basic reason include an alternative A sledge couple with gadget finger allows a pseudo form of potemkin greatness where Tager doesn't have to work vs hard to get in on people.. achive the close range combat is tager A game from there he doesn't need to do much in terms of mix up.... Whats argueable is giving characters with large damage and unthrow techable move an easy way to get in on people.. its same way I would treat arakune... I rather seem them work for their way in. Tager A game will always be close range remove the difficulty and you will get a characters with no flaw. Even hakumen changes and over buff has made him an ugly character... while hakumen players will be delights its disgusting in many way. you don't try to correct nature, it’s a characters flaw that already existed... like I said previously you will have to make tager extreme gay to have some sort of balance or weaken his opponent not be able to zone or do damage. I rather they gave tager the flick which adequately compensate this flaw directly while not trying to mangle the other melee cast. Slide head is universal where its godly it affects everyone and his entire match up, Potemkin flick only deals with projectile base attack which in essence deals with the innate flaw vs zoner. What you suggest doesn’t fix an issue it only causes and imbalance you’re trying to fix the root but creating more problems.
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 I understand there are alternatives, but I was hoping you would provide me a reason as to why slide head, on tager right now, would be broken. It doesn't provide a brain-dead and unstoppable way of entry, and I've stated why. It also doesn't provide brain dead gameplay after entry, and I've stated why. You can't just continue to state slide head is godly by itself while not trying to refute my points.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 I understand there are alternatives, but I was hoping you would provide me a reason as to why slide head, on tager right now, would be broken. It doesn't provide a brain-dead and unstoppable way of entry, and I've stated why. It also doesn't provide brain dead gameplay after entry, and I've stated why. You can't just continue to state slide head is godly by itself while not trying to refute my points. there wasn't much a need, and yes slide head is brain dead.... the mechanic allows upper the knee invul and situational combo.. the OTG effect is too large. Do you dare say tager can't get a decent 4k of an unblockable. If Slide head worked the same way as in GG you could make it spamable... Tager already has a Atomic collider combo that OTG picks, the same combo can be use to gave tager the same effect. Hammer cancel isn't a neccesity, tager is not as great as potemkin but he is no push over when he's in your face. I believe you're wrong as it does create an unstopable entry more than likely it will just let scrubs spam it as their game play. Did you also cheer for hakumen 4c as a way to approaching zoner? or stop people from getting in. Slide has 3 areas that makes lame while tager can capitalised on it. Invulnerbility, untech frames and the quick recovery. Why wouldn't it make tager gay....
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Again, provide points. I'm getting tired of saying it. Where did 4k off unblockable come from? When did you dictate the proration on the move? We are trying to argue options here. Don't make up numbers in favor of your argument because it can't be argued directly. For entry, it's meant to punish spammage. If you know what your opponent is goign to do, you should be able to do something about it. If tager can read nu's jD correctly/hakumen 4C correctly/etc, he should be able to punish it. That's its purpose. It wouldn't be spammable because 1. He won't be able to approach and continue to knockdown without hammerfall cancel. 2. He won't be able to spam because you can adjust your tech timing in many different ways due to different teching system, so a meaty is very hard to achieve. This applies to both when zoning and when doing oki. Real upper body invunerability is necessary for slide head, same as knockdown to achieve its purpose. Quick recovery is worth noting, as it would be hard to punish in 2 match-ups (I think mirror and tsubaki imo). Even then it's still a stretch. I really don't want to repeat myself again. Please provide a counter argument outside of "I think you are wrong".
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Well, while my friend says it's hard to tell, he agrees with you, here is his argument. "well, with magnetism a long knockdown from anywhere will put you right next to him" "which also makes it easy for him to refresh magnetism" "and combined with gadget finger allows him to play his scary oki game off of any knockdown" Which actually would make it potentially crazy because then tager can get close knockdown from anywhere. I can go by this argument and say my perception was not complete.
zaeris Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Again, provide points. I'm getting tired of saying it. Where did 4k off unblockable come from? When did you dictate the proration on the move? We are trying to argue options here. Don't make up numbers in favor of your argument because it can't be argued directly. For entry, it's meant to punish spammage. If you know what your opponent is goign to do, you should be able to do something about it. If tager can read nu's jD correctly/hakumen 4C correctly/etc, he should be able to punish it. That's its purpose. It wouldn't be spammable because 1. He won't be able to approach and continue to knockdown without hammerfall cancel. 2. He won't be able to spam because you can adjust your tech timing in many different ways due to different teching system, so a meaty is very hard to achieve. This applies to both when zoning and when doing oki. Real upper body invunerability is necessary for slide head, same as knockdown to achieve its purpose. Quick recovery is worth noting, as it would be hard to punish in 2 match-ups (I think mirror and tsubaki imo). Even then it's still a stretch. I really don't want to repeat myself again. Please provide a counter argument outside of "I think you are wrong". Lol, fine let’s play your way since you so bent on defending slide head as being a balance tool. Slide heads in gg already prorated moves by 90% I don’t even see why it’s not possible to do large of it. Did you really believe it was intended for combo? Are you trying to tell me it’s fair and won’t be abused. 1. Hammer fall cancel was unnecessary as you've been trying to avoid my point. The weakness in hammerfal in gg was that there was only one version with a set range. The cancel works by shortening the distance or to choosing a cancel. Sledge A can be used as a range negotiator in this case. I don't see how it can't be achieve with Sledge A from range KD or via jumping. 2. Think you’re forgetting the main point of tech roll that it’s punishable, what gives you confidence to say that slide head can't pick up rolls giving a reset into combo. Again playing with unknown mechanic but if OTG black beating with slide head was an option forcing people to neutral tech it is still in tagers favour plus gadget finger already gives him a pseudo okizeme. 3. Upper body invul isn't a necessity as Nu 2c had no invul of course thats another issue but there are simple ways to work around the need for having random invul in place. The purpose is a range KD which allows him to easily move in. Achieving its purpose and making it easy isn't an application of balance. The untechable time is too long that is unneeded. Why don’t you try an answer my question instead why would you think it’s fair? When other alternative is better. And yes I think you’re taking slide head too lightly and not thinking far enough of the repercussion.
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 I assume you haven't read my previous post. But I will have to point out a thing or 2. it's not between quick tech and tech roll. It's between quick tech, neutral tech, and delayed quick tech. I don't see what your 3rd point has to do with anything. 2C was good for a different application. Have nothing in common here. In any case, I forgot to make the connection my friend stated, which is a good argument. I can see your assessment of A sledge, and agree on that. Just to clarify another thing, you never asked me questions regarding slide head till the sentence right after you made that statement. And here is the answer, I was arguing the validity of slide head, not which was the best option. When arguing that broadly, theory fighter gets out of hand, which is why the argument was based on one thing and one thing only, while limiting the uses of numbers as best as possible. And slidehead itself would never be a problem. It's always slide head + something that becomes a problem. That was my main argument. It turns out I forgot that other something.
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