[CS1] Hakumen Information Thread

[MisoSowee]

So I posted this a bit earlier. Got a friend in Japan to try it out. Worked but slightly different from what I imagined.

throw>enma>(delay) IAD j2A>jC>land>j2A>jC>gurren>5C, and then run corner oki.

Change is removing one 5C between jC and gurren.

'High-five myself'

Why is it that you don't use 2c to re-launch?

iirc it does more damage than j.2a, unless it totally makes the oki impossible. I was just curious if 2c was somehow not usable in j.2c loops.... *shrug*

[ryokoalways]

2C won't work in that combo simply because tech time has severe penalty off a throw, so using the hit count from the current game as a reference, this seems like a sweet spot on paper because I'm pretty sure adding another hit would cause gurren to not link. Also note that 2C would have caused more push back, which would be troublesome in securing optimal distance oki.

[MisoSowee]

2C won't work in that combo simply because tech time has severe penalty off a throw, so using the hit count from the current game as a reference, this seems like a sweet spot on paper because I'm pretty sure adding another hit would cause gurren to not link. Also note that 2C would have caused more push back, which would be troublesome in securing optimal distance oki.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you! :D

Definitely news to me.

[MadRhetoric]

So I posted this a bit earlier. Got a friend in Japan to try it out. Worked but slightly different from what I imagined.

throw>enma>(delay) IAD j2A>jC>land>j2A>jC>gurren>5C, and then run corner oki.

Change is removing one 5C between jC and gurren.

'High-five myself'

Is that a forward or back throw? or does it work from both?

also props for the nice guess

[ryokoalways]

Forward throw. Again, the problem is that forward throw special cancel window got a lot smaller, so delay gurren into the old corner combo into knockdown doesn't work. This is a temporary replacement till something better is found (if it is found).

[JackG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O3jgBYQk3w

6:14: anti air CH 5A>5C works

[SimpleKiss]

I've seen this in a few CS vids where Hakumen will do j.2A -> j.2A -> J.2C -> J.C in the corner, and I've seen a few other vids where the Hakumen only does j.2A -> j2.A -> J.C. Is the first dustloop character specific?

[ryokoalways]

Provide example footage. As far as I know j2C doesn't link into jC no matter how you time it, so the first case doesn't even exist.

[SimpleKiss]

Provide example footage. As far as I know j2C doesn't link into jC no matter how you time it, so the first case doesn't even exist.

You're right, went back and it was 3 j.2A's then J.C.

I often times see things that aren't there it would seem.

[DavidGuard]

From the BBCS news and info thread

Hakumen Match-up Chart:

＼ | Ragna||  Jin  ||  Noel  || Tager ||  Taokaka  || Rachel || Arakune || Litchi || Carl  || Bang  || Hakumen || Lamda || Tsubaki || Hazama|
面|  5.0  ||  5.5  ||  5.5   ||  5.5  ||    5.5    ||   6.5  ||   ?.?   ||  4.5   ||  5.0  ||  4.0  ||  -.-    ||  5.5  ||   6.0   ||  5.5  |

Ragna- Zoning game is even, Ragna's avg dmg is slightly higher, but Hakumen's higher hp evens out. risk/return from DP is variable. Matchup is even. (4C, jC, and generally less punishable C moves have made zoning game even. Makes sense)

Jin- Can apply full pressure on correct reads, but likewise can be pressed hard on wrong reads. Currently advantage is in firepower. Slight advantage.

Noel- Generally less options and high firepower combos that were easy on hakumen are gone. Also pressure strings weakened. (Lost some frame traps hurts, so makes sense)

Tager- jC via reacting to opponent movement is strong, likewise for 4C(and occasional 6C) spamamge, but if magnetized zoning game becomes even. If caught into wakeup game can die in one go. Hotaru makes things slightly difficult for tager though. Slight advantage

Taokaka- Ability to fight tao in the air much better (can counter more specific things tao do in the air). 6A nerf is annoying but does not hurt very much. Other AA options are sufficient. Slight Advantage.

Rachel- Long range zoning is the same as last game, but once hakumen gets into mid range the match becomes nearly impossible. Firepower difference too severe. Big advantage.

Arakune- Not enough data. jC may provide slight advantage.

Litchi- Probably has avg dmg advantage. Risk/return also in Litchi's favor. 6A nerf hurts because it would have crushed jB. jC makes things not too bad at mid range. Getting use to the lack of 6A will probably make this matchup not too bad. Slight disadvantage.

Carl-2D/6D active frame decrease, but 6A nerf hurts some. Rest of the matchup is about the same (sandwich sucks). However raw dmg and HP difference makes this matchup even.

Bang- Good mobility, good avg dmg, good pressure, and fear of furinkazan. jC makes things a bit interesting, but not much else hakumen can do safely. Disadvantage (6A nerf probably hurts a lot here, but I think it will be 4.5-5-5 in bang's favor eventually)

Nu- Gaining a lead in HP is much more probable, and hakumen can now use it as leverage. nerf to nu's swords, C moves and hakumen's jC/4C makes things interesting. Slight advantage. (I think this will be even, unless they think the firepower difference will keep it at slight advantage)

Tsubaki- Outranged and unable to sustain pressure. Cannot matchup in firepower. Currently advantage

Hazama- dp is strong. Currently zoning isn't difficult because it's still easy to read hazama players for now, but that may change in the future. Firepower difference, able to cut chains makes this currently slight advantage. (This will probably be even. Hakumen won't be able zone safely once hazama players get good at punish with mizuchi)

Our time has come!

[JackG]

Not bad, only 2 unfavorable matchups so far and a buttload of favorables (Rachel at 6.5? wow!) Though I'm thinking it's probably a bit too early to tell. Hakumen is the type of character to get fully developed early on while other take more time to flesh out.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Not bad, only 2 unfavorable matchups so far and a buttload of favorables (Rachel at 6.5? wow!) Though I'm thinking it's probably a bit too early to tell. Hakumen is the type of character to get fully developed early on while other take more time to flesh out.

You think so? Your the pro, but I always found that Hakumen had a lot to offer, different tricks on how to handle different attacks, counters, stuff like the hop specials. But I guess there can't be that mcuht o discover about hakumen compared to his ct version.

[ryokoalways]

Hakumen's play style didn't change whatsoever. He may have a few new things, but it won't take long to figure everything out. You play him exactly as you played him in CT, just with more tools.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Makes sense that's what I figured, I'm loving yukikaze's low attack catches FRIGGIN AWESOME. I just figured there would be A LOT new little tricks here and there with haku to use at his disposal but wtv. I rather not switch up my defensive-"yomi" style anyways.

[DavidGuard]

Well, as new stuff is discovered these matchups will most likely change, Rachel,Arakune, and Hazama being good examples, but at the moment I will wrench every ounce of win outta Hakumen when go the Arcade Infinity now that they got their CS board in. I read somewhere Hakumens's astral was changed to 2[hold] 8 D, can anyone confirm this?

[ryokoalways]

Match-up won't be hard to determine in BB because the game isn't complex. Unlike GG, where the biggest emphasis is placed on okizeme (wake-up game), BB's biggest emphasis is tachikaeri (zoning game). Hence why I said the most likely matchup changes would be Hazama, Nu, and Bang.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Well, as new stuff is discovered these matchups will most likely change, Rachel,Arakune, and Hazama being good examples, but at the moment I will wrench every ounce of win outta Hakumen when go the Arcade Infinity now that they got their CS board in.

I read somewhere Hakumens's astral was changed to 2[hold] 8 D, can anyone confirm this?

Yea him and Jin's astral input changed to that. =]

Can't wait to use it when it comes out on consoles on people. It was just ridiculous to land his astral in ct, I've been astraled before but akumetsu is just RIDICULOUS to land in a fight especially a serious one.

[JackG]

Ryoko has it pretty much. Also, I'm not saying Hakumen isn't difficult to play and unlock all of his potential, but his initial learning curve is fairly simple. I'm sure it isn't too difficult to throw 4C and j.C a lot and win when the game just came out and people are still getting used to the huge character changes. keep in mind Arakune was considered pretty bad when CT first came out because while being pretty broken, it took a long time for people to optimize his combos and such. Long story short, learning to play Haku basic-wise well (aka blocking/IBing, countering on reaction, not having gatlings) is more difficult in the long run over most characters, but the combos and pokes are probably one of the easier ones (nothing character specific really)

[MadRhetoric]

His matchups are much more balanced for right now, that's great. It's good that they err on the side of advantage rather than disadvantage, but I feel a bit bad for Rachel though, such a huge swing from CT...

[JackG]

Forgot to mention Hakumen can projectile autoguard Hazama's D moves, meaning if he pulls himself in he just sucked himself into one of those black holes. Makes it pretty difficult for Hazama to move in I'd say.

[fubarduck]

Forgot to mention Hakumen can projectile autoguard Hazama's D moves, meaning if he pulls himself in he just sucked himself into one of those black holes. Makes it pretty difficult for Hazama to move in I'd say.

On the contrary, if a Hazama D move counterhits Hakumen before the active frames on projectile autoguard, Hazama gets a full B&B. Hazama can A cancel out if he sees the clash with your sword and avoid the black hole; furthermore, he can just whiff punish if you're spamming 4C.

I would say thus far that Hazama's goal against Hakumen is not to rush in, but to fish for counterhits and play safely on the other side of the screen until Hakumen is forced to come in.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Hakumen has to be patient against Hazama, can't just spam C and hope to cut chains. Still not a bad fight, Hakumen does so much more damage and it isn't impossible for Hakumen to get in or anything. Playing patient and slowly advancing through zoning shouldn't be anything new to Hakumen players, anyhow. Kinda wondering how feasible it is to 6[C] Hazama, maybe if you can get him to whiff 236236B...? Dunno what to do when I block that move for MAX DAMAGE just yet.

[DavidGuard]

Doing the Haku hop on a knocked down Hazama and baiting his dp and punishing by back dashing out of its range and following with 6c should be viable as it works on all the other characters with dp's. Altough I'm worried, a friend said he read somewhere on DL that you can no longer special cancel a tech role. Is this true for CS? No more tech role renka crossup for Hakumen?

[MisoSowee]

Can Hazama can't do a meaty because he has to enter the stance first? Tbh I don't know I just am thinkin about it... I would rather frame trap/mix-up with a meaty, but i guess it depends on how much meter you got. Or I could be totally wrong

[ryokoalways]

You can't tech roll cancel anymore, which is a great change because in CT certain characters were actually at a disadvantage when their opponent is knocked down.