Seifuuku Posted August 31, 2010 Posted August 31, 2010 I think everyone here can agree that Hazama can abuse instant block very well because of his moveset, and that it is somewhat important for you to learn when you can instant block into some sort of punishment, so here is an instant block into punish thread. When I say 100% guaranteed punish, what I mean is that unless they rapid cancel or cancel to something with invuln on reaction, such as a DP or install, it means that you will punish them.. 100%. Usually if it isn't 100% guaranteed punish, the move is jump cancel-able, is less than -7 SD (Jayoku is 7 frame start up.) or has some other property that makes it not 100% punishable. Most of these "100% punish" gaps let the enemy do some sort of special/distortion that may have invuln or some other property during Jayoku's super flash. However, doing this requires that you react to the instant block and immediately stop your blockstring to prepare for superflash special cancel input. Even though most normals can be canceled into an invuln move, it still requires that they read your instant block->jayoku, which pretty much requires them to stop their pressure in order to bait without getting counter hit in the middle of their blockstring. In the end, just remember that the reason IB->Jayoku works most of the time is because they continued their blockstring despite the IB->Jayoku threat, or did they not react to the instant block and pushed buttons. True punishes are things that require them to rapid cancel their attack to prevent being punished. Do note that most of these can be used with other characters with frame 1 invuln as well.. Inferno Divider, some distortions, etc. This list assumes that you use regular instant block on the ground. (-5 frames of hit stun). Also, when I say something like "5d->anything, 100% guaranteed punish", this excludes something like 5d->invuln move. Huge thanks to the BB:CS Dustloop guide for the frame data. ============ Ragna the Bloodedge Jayoku Houtenjin 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 3c->anything, they can jump cancel 6a->anything, they can jump cancel 5b->5c, 3c or 6a, 100% guaranteed punish. 5b->2b is air tight. 5d (1)->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5d (2)->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6c (1)=True 100% guaranteed punish 214a=True 100% guaranteed punish 214b=True 100% guaranteed punish Gasaishou/Bloody Fangs 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish Jin Kisaragi Jayoku Houtenjin 5a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish (although DP after 6c is very common) 5b (1 or 2)-> anything, they can jump cancel 5c->anything other than 3c, they can jump cancel. 2b->anything, they can jump cancel. 2a->anything, they can throw an empty 2a and block. 5d=True 100% guaranteed punish, however having 25 meter opens up 623D cancel which makes it a regular 100% punish. 623abcd=True 100% guaranteed punish 236ab=True 100% guaranteed punish at very close range. j236d=True 100% guaranteed punish at close range. 214abcd=True 100% guaranteed punish. Noel Vermillion Note that she can use her drive to avoid your houtenjin if she times it well.. Delay it to catch them if they start doing this. Jayoku Houtenjin 5c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish. 6a->2b is air tight. 5b->anything, they can jump cancel 2a->anything, they can jump cancel 5a->anything except 5a, they can jump cancel/empty 5a. 236d=True 100% guaranteed punish at close enough range 214d=True 100%guaranteed punish 623d=True 100% guaranteed punish *Working on chain revolver moveset...* Gasaishou/Bloody Fangs 2b->anything, except drives and supers. Taokaka Note that trick edge and 5d~b (drive cross up) can turn 100% guaranteed punishes into jayoku whiffs. At max range of some moves however, you will still get a jayoku hit against 5d~b. She can also special cancel to 22c, which may make some strings air tight. You can still IB it and punish with a jayoku. Jayoku Houtenjin 2c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 3c (1, 2)->anything, 100% guaranteed punish, true punish at max range 3c (2)->3c (3), true 100% guaranteed punish 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a (1)->anything, can jump cancel 5b->anything, can jump cancel 5c->anything, can jump cancel 5a->anything, can throw an empty 5a or jump cancel 22c=True 100% guaranteed punish 236a=True 100% guaranteed punish 236c=True 100% guaranteed punish Rachel Alucard Note that well timed use of her pumpkin can turn some of these 100% guaranteed punish gaps into true block strings. Also, they can't counter houtenjin with 2c after super flash, so you may consider 2b/2a to be true punishes if you want. Jayoku Houtenjin 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5b->anything, they can jump cancel 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 6c=True 100% guaranteed punish 3c=True 100% guaranteed punish j2c=True 100% guaranteed punish 5cc=True 100% guaranteed punish 236a=True 100% guaranteed punish at close range. Litchi Faye Ling Note that she can use her straight through special to guard against IB Jayoku from most of her normals while she has her mantenbou. She can also cancel to 41236a while her mantenbou is placed to jump away & make jayoku whiff. Jayoku Houtenjin 2c[m]->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5c[m]->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6b[m]->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b[m]->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2a->anything, they can jump cancel 5a->anything except 5a, they can jump cancel/use empty 5a. 5b[m]->anything, they can jump cancel 6a[m]=True 100% guaranteed punish 6c[m]=True 100% guaranteed punish 6d[m] (1)->(2), 100% guaranteed punish if they are close enough to hit you on the first active frame Another note - while empty handed she can cancel most of her normals to her 236 specials, which make a few strings air tight. Depending on what she uses, you can usually punish it with houtenjin or 5a. Also, she can cancel to 2D while empty handed to recover & block much faster than usual. 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5b->anything except 2b, they can jump cancel. 5c->anything, they can jump cancel 6b->anything, they can jump cancel 2c->anything, they can jump cancel 6c (1)->6c (2), True 100% guaranteed punish Iron Tager Note that a 4d after 5c, 6c and 2c makes it air tight. Instant block the 4d and punish with 5a. He can also cancel all his ground normals except 3c into spark bolt (might make strings air tight depending on distance), which is punishable by 2a/5a on IB if you are close enough. Using 360 or 720 after his normals may make jayoku whiff as well. Jayoku Houtenjin 5c->anything except 4d, 100% guaranteed punish 2c->anything except 4d, 100% guaranteed punish 5b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 2a->anything other than 2a, they can jump cancel 6a->anything except 2c, they can jump cancel 2b->anything, they can throw an empty 2b 236a=True 100% guaranteed punish Sledge->Hammer=True 100% guaranteed punish 3c=True 100% guaranteed punish. j.2c can be punished by 5a/2a on IB, true punish. 2d can be punished by 5a/2a on IB, true punish. Close range Spark Bolt can be punished by 5a/2a on IB, true punish Lambda 11 Note that Lambda can cancel most of her normals to gravity well to make Jayoku whiff. Jayoku Houtenjin 3c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish (watch for gravity well) 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 5b->anything, they can jump cancel 6b->anything except 3c and 4b, they can jump cancel. 6a->5c or 2c, they can jump cancel 4b=True 100% guaranteed punish, fatal on IB. Can punish in between the hits. 236c=True 100% guaranteed punish 214d (no charge) at close range=True 100% guaranteed punish j.214d at close range=True 100% guaranteed punish Lambda's 5c and 2c are unique in that at any time they can cancel to the next C attack, and because they are multi hit. Being multi hit and gatling-able, they are very difficult to IB and jayoku against as the timing of when they continue the gatling can change at the player's whim, so I will not include them. Hazama If Hazama is in his stance for 6 frames already when you do your houtenjin, then they can simply counter it hit by using 214d~b, so be careful. If they input Jayoku after you, they will always win. Jayoku Houtenjin 2b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 3c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a=100% guaranteed punish, watch for houtenjin reaction on super flash. 6b=100% guaranteed punish, watch for houtenjin reaction on super flash. 2a->anything, can throw an empty 2a 5a->anything, can jump cancel 5b->anything, can jump cancel 5c->anything, can jump cancel 214d~c (not charged)=True 100% guaranteed punish 214d~b=True 100% guaranteed punish at the right distance. j236b=True 100% guaranteed punish. Tsubaki Yayoi Jayoku Houtenjin 6a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2a->anything, they can throw an empty 2a 2b->anything, can throw an empty 2b 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 214a=True 100% guaranteed punish 22abc=True 100% guaranteed punish 22a charged=True 100% guaranteed punish j214abc=True 100% guaranteed punish 5b->anything they can 2d charge and block or jump cancel 5c->anything, they can 2d charge and block Hakumen Jayoku Houtenjin 2c->anything except 214b/214a, 100% guaranteed punish 5c->anything except 214b/214a, 100% guaranteed punish 5a->anything, can jump cancel or counter 2a->anything, can throw an empty 2a or counter 2b->anything, can throw an empty 2b or counter 4c=True 100% guaranteed punish 6c=100% guaranteed punish (can trap with yukikaze) 214a=100% guaranteed punish 214b (1)->anything except 214a, 100% guaranteed punish 214b (2)->anything, can do an empty 214b 41236c (1)->anything except 214a/214b 41236c (2)->anything except 214a/214b Gasaishou/Bloody Fangs 2a->anything other than than renka, hop, and immediate throw. They can jump away after empty 2a. 6b=True 100% guaranteed punish.. Bang Shishigami Note that he can cancel to his guard points during most of his normals to attempt to bait the houtenjin Jayoku Houtenjin 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish, watch for guard point 5a->anything, can jump cancel 5c->anything, can jump cancel 623b=True 100% guaranteed punish 6b=True 100% guaranteed punish 5d, 2d, 6d=True 100% guaranteed punish 236236d (asura)=True 100% guaranteed punish 5d2d6d=True 100% guaranteed punish j.D=True 100% guaranteed punish by 2a. Arakune Note that Arakune can use 3c to make jayoku whiff, and most of these are invalid while you are cursed.. Jayoku Houtenjin 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a->5d, they can throw an empty 6a (use 236c to avoid trading, as you will trade with 5d with Jayoku) 5a->anything, they can jump cancel 5b->anything, can jump cancel 2d=True guaranteed punish at close range (second hit of the bug will whiff) j2abc=True 100% guaranteed punish Carl Clover Watch for vivace after his normals, as they can make Jayoku whiff. Nirvana may make some of these block strings air tight. Jayoku Houtenjin 6b=100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, can throw an empty 2b 5a->anything, can jump cancel 2a->anything, can jump cancel 5b->anything, can jump cancel 5c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish IAD j.2c, True 100% guaranteed punish Mu-12 Jayoku Houtenjin 2a->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 3c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6b->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 5c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 2b->anything, they can use empty 2b 5a->anything except 5a, they can jump cancel or use empty 5a 5b->anything except 2b, they can jump cancel 2c->3c, they can jump cancel. 63214c=True 100% guaranteed punish j2c=True 100% guaranteed punish I don't have DLC.
FlyingVe Posted August 31, 2010 Posted August 31, 2010 Awesome list, good job. A thought though. Can't some characters cancel into invulnerable moves during the super flash (Ragna >Blood Kain for example), thus screwing up the punish? Edit: So you did mention that. Sorry, I misread that sentence.
Seifuuku Posted August 31, 2010 Author Posted August 31, 2010 yes, i said that in the opening. however it is very impractical, so i still consider some strings with chances like that 100% guaranteed punishes.
ZONG_one Posted August 31, 2010 Posted August 31, 2010 I'll sit down with Carl and try some stuff. Note that 5A > anything can be interrupted. Also 2A > anything. These can both be jump canceled. 5B > 6B can be IB'd and punished. But 5B is jump cancel-able, so watch out. 2B into anything is 100% guaranteed. If you IB j.2C cross up you can punish. 3C can also be punished on IB. If you IB 5C, you can punish it's recovery. Only complication I see is gear super on reaction. 5C > Gear doesn't gatling normally though, so I don't know who would do this unless they have you cornered.
Seifuuku Posted September 1, 2010 Author Posted September 1, 2010 debating if i should add things that can be punished on regular block and things that can be punished by jabs on IB.
Overheat Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 Lambda 11 Jayoku Houtenjin 5b->anything, they can jump cancel 6b->anything except 3c and 4b, 100% guaranteed punish 3c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6a->5c or 2c, they can jump cancel 6c->anything, 100% guaranteed punish 6B is special and jump cancellable. Lambda can super flash buffer her 214A. 632146D doesn't work for her, though. Basically, any of Lambda's special cancellable moves will let her super flash buffer 214A. I don't recommend doing IB 236236B if she's doing a bunch of special cancellable moves. Which includes her 3C and 6C.
Seifuuku Posted September 1, 2010 Author Posted September 1, 2010 added. frame data on 4b seems to be wrong, can't special or jump cancel it on block. [edit] oh shit, my bad. confused 4b and 6b >_> if anyone finds anything similar to lambda's 6c (end of a combo string usually, where you usually do not follow it up & thus have time to react to super flash with invuln) please let me know so i can edit it in.
g.Bauer Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 Great Job. I'll read it more carefully tomorrow at work =D
TheDarkWall Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 kawaiiii he drags out the oni , thats how you know you're getting laid.
Spark Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 You can never punish Hakumen's 6B with Jayoku. On the super flash all they would have to do is chain into 6D or 2D to win.
Lord Knight Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 When Litchi is staffless, you can only punish the starting move of a string (say something like 6A), you can't actually interrupt. She can cancel any of her normals into 2[D] which significantly reduces the recovery on her normals. I feel like this list can be cut down by a lot, most of the stuff you list never/rarely happens, and people should just have the common sense to know when to use it. It'd be better to make a list of stuff Jayoku doesn't beat imo.
huey253 Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 Bang's 5C is jump cancelable and you totally forgot about daifunka lol which is also punishable
Seifuuku Posted September 2, 2010 Author Posted September 2, 2010 added.. what the hell at 5c being jc'able >_> i think stuff like daifunka is sort of obvious, and in those situations 5c ch->houtenjin is always better unless you predict a burst
huey253 Posted September 2, 2010 Posted September 2, 2010 5c being jump cancelable is one of the biggest things people complain about. it being sooo negative on block is a weakness because its jump cancelable in chains into several things. but yea...bangs op
Seifuuku Posted October 11, 2010 Author Posted October 11, 2010 should i list obvious stuff like jin 623c ragna 623c blocked supers etc
Linear04 Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 you should do for some blocked supers that have low recovery frames because i cant get a counter hit on blocked taokaka 236236d at all
Fireryda Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 236236D Low recovery? What... Learn when it ends and just Houtenjin. Blocked 236236D is so free... It just has a good amount of invul.
Varamathras Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 You could also start mashing it right after you block the last hit.
Spiteful Posted October 23, 2010 Posted October 23, 2010 awesome thread. I think it's important that we discuss how to input this trick though, since doing double QCF can be difficult to do on such a small gap of reaction. The trick I have been trying to do, is to input a QCF as you instant block, so your command input would be 1236 then back to one to keep blocking, but if you see yourself land that instant block on either 1, then finish the 2nd QCF to punish with "big bang upper" Anyone else have ideas for inputs?
Gog_ Posted October 23, 2010 Posted October 23, 2010 Rachel can 3C 4D(maybe 7D too), so its not a 100% punish. 3C is multiple hits making its easier to see someone IBing it w/o having to intentionally bait Jayoku. Does IB Jayoku beat j.3DC 2C?
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