[CS1] Ragna vs Jin

[Yggjrasil]

I've been fighting Render's Jin, and he's been ripping me a new one with his Jin, I know that 5A/6A is extremely good against his jump ins and IADs. Other than that, This match up is pretty much about spacing. Discuss.

Oh yes if you're really close to Jin, 5B,6A,5C will not work on him, the 5C will wiff.

[Seifuuku]

don't be obvious with your approach. against what i consider the best jin on xbl (not that there are many, and not that this actually means much), that is how i play against him to go even or better.. still have to watch for their gimmicks though (ice resets, 6c guessing games [ib 6c->dp almost beats everything jin has at that point..] and cross ups/fake cross ups with j236d. 623d resets as well, you can just BK into fatal, gold burst, or dp out in those situations)

623b does not have invuln from frame 1, if he hits you with it you are timing your meaties wrong most likely.. if you are having problems with DPs on wake up/against jump ins, what you do is position yourself outside of forward roll range/throw range, os a 2a against quick tech and wait a bit right after they wake up before you actually start pressuring - don't be obvious with the bait and don't sacrifice your pressure entirely, this is what most people are guilty of when they try to bait a DP. if they start pressuring you on your wake up, you can probably try a quick 2a to attempt to catch their attempt to immediately pressure you next time, but it might take too long to recover and you might be hit by one of his DPs. anyway, if they start doing this in the first place you are being obvious with your bait/they guessed right.

depending on the range he used 236a you can probably punish it with 5b on ib. anyway, this match up is in ragna's favor slightly, i think. adjust to how they play.. if they can ib consistently don't throw out 2b 5c often.. if they bait your 6a/5a anti air with ice swords, beat it with a D DP on reaction or just run under and punish him.. if they mash 2a, fatal trap them with 2c. watch for their habits of using 6a as well (just watch for it from 2a/5a) and punish them hard if you can react & block it.

[LordSpectreX]

Way to take that line out of context. D:

[LuminAbyss]

I don't know if it's just me, but Jin's always seem to get me with 623B and 623C (Blizzard and Violent Ice), because of the invincibility frames in both attacks. Anyone know of a good way to get past them? ( 623D gives me a lot of grief too OTL )

My main problem with all of those attacks is that they can be pulled off too fast for me to see it coming.

[VR-Raiden]

My main problem with all of those attacks is that they can be pulled off too fast for me to see it coming.

Exactly, they are DP's so you shouldn't be able to block them on reaction, they are meant to hit you for attacking. You have to anticipate them and punish on block/whiff. Try to figure out when they like to do them and instead of attacking, block or dodge them in some way, then punish. To figure out what to punish each DP with in any situation, just record Jin in training mode doing the DP's then blocking, and playback to find the best punish.

[ioKain]

You can 2B under 623A and the similar one (623C?) that has longer recovery at the right distance, not 100% sure on the second. So if the Jin likes to throw these on wake up, 2B is your best bet to continue pressure.

[Seifuuku]

623a only, the rest hit him out of 2b/3c

[Arvoyea]

Jin pissed me off in CT, and he still does in CS. So far, it seems like the only way a Ragna player can get a chance to win is to just IB everything. I'm cool with that, but everything he does is like instant. And I can't really IB yet. How can I make 'em be more careful about how they throw stuff out so I can punish?

[LuminAbyss]

Something I do against a lot of Jin players (Though the really really good ones still find ways to eff me up) is just zone them with some of Ragna's longer range attacks. The most they can do at a distance is Ice blades or the Ice Car, both of which are easier to block than any of his close range moves. So if they're giving you a lot of trouble, try to stay just outside of their range and try to keep picking away at them with Ragna's C and D attacks ( I find 5C/2C and 5D both work good when doing this. Death Spike might also work in this case, having a large hitbox)

This is by no means full proof, and they'll probably realize what you're doing and try to get closer (Since it is a really predictable plan), but it's just an idea to try and get damage off them ( using drive attacks will help you regain some too ). I'm not too good with Ragna if I'm not all up in their face.

[A.X.I.S.]

he can space you with J.C...if anything you get in their face, they can't do much about it once you land a combo unless they have 25 heat, and even then its not gonna screw you unless your in the corner.

funny thing this match up is really shit for jin, he can't keep up with ragna's increased safety, longer pokes, damage output, and meter gain.

its just a textbook good match up for us.

[LuminAbyss]

he can space you with J.C...if anything you get in their face, they can't do much about it once you land a combo unless they have 25 heat, and even then its not gonna screw you unless your in the corner.

Really? I find it when I'm comboing them they love to DP the second the combo ends or is interrupted or messed up (At least, the really experienced Jin's I've played against keep doing that)

[smooshman]

^rip his spine out when he DP's randomly.

Jin pissed me off in CT, and he still does in CS. So far, it seems like the only way a Ragna player can get a chance to win is to just IB everything. I'm cool with that, but everything he does is like instant. And I can't really IB yet. How can I make 'em be more careful about how they throw stuff out so I can punish?

Jin's pressure is unsafe as all hell. 236A is -6 and dash cancel is -4..... now I'm not to familiar with ragmana or whatever but if you happen to have a DP, then it's a get out of jail free card. Jin also has no solution meterless solution to well spaced Ragna pressure, when he get's 25 meter it's another story, but if you just stay outside his 5B then you should be fine, and anything you have will stuff his 5C.... anything 5C's hittable box sucks ass (prehensile cape FTL T_T). Also Ragna rapes Jin's neutral game, with ice swords being slow and punishable, and Ragna's rapetastic pokes.... hell Jin's DP's can't even handle JC to well.

the only thing Jin has in this matchup is air-to-air, his JC is good... and that's it, Ragna does nearly everything else as good or better.

moves to look for/bait/punish:

6C, 6B, 6A (lololololol), 6D, 2D ice swords in general, DP.

moves that you should avoid (jin's moves):

623D (his only good reversal), 236D (gives him free pressure, so jump it or avoid it), 5B (faster than Ragna's.... by a frame, but is pretty good for pressure and close range), JC (beats just about anything you have in the air), 2A (surprisingly good AA...sometimes)

moves to use (your moves):

5B(beats just about every possible poke Jin could try), 5C(see 5B), 6A (6A>>>>>>>>anything jin has, except ice sword), ID (when pressured of course, or punish air ice swords if you feel daring)..... really any of your normals will beat his, Jin's normals are shit

this matchup sucks for Jin

[Seifuuku]

"well spaced" pressure being what..? most of ragna's damage, mix up and pressure (+pressure resets) require close range.. which 623c also hits at. 6b 6d 2d are advantage on block, continue pressure & bait dp from there.. 5b 2b 5c are jump cancel-able, always safe on block, along with jabs of course.. only true unsafe normal is 6a, and mostly unsafe are 3c and 6c which can be special canceled to 236a. 5d as well, but can be considered safe with 25 meter. 236a is -6, yes.. but you have to consider that the ice sword does not always hit from frame 1 because it is a projectile.

[smooshman]

"well spaced" pressure being what..? most of ragna's damage, mix up and pressure (+pressure resets) require close range.. 6b 6d 2d are advantage on block, continue pressure & bait dp from there.. 5b 2b 5c are jump cancel-able, always safe on block, along with jabs of course.. only true unsafe normal is 6a, and mostly unsafe are 3c and 6c which can be special canceled to 236a. 5d as well, but can be considered safe with 25 meter. 236a is -6, yes.. but you have to consider that the ice sword does not always hit from frame 1 because it is a projectile.

Ranga's damage range>Jin's at close as long as you stay about.... half of 5B's length~ away there isn't much he can do.

yes 6B, 6D, 2D are safe, but 6B, and 6D are slow.... very, very slow, and a whiffed 2D is a death sentence. No there is no way to make 6C '"safe" without RC, 236A is a -6... that's before you take into account his next attacks start up. so at a minimum it's a -11 on block, assuming he doesn't just block, but that's good for Ragna anyway. If jin is doing 236A in a pressure string he's generally point blank-ish, so it safe to say that you can punish him for it, unless he does a dash cancel, in which case you can just 2A, and he will either block or have his attack beat (unless he does a DP, but that's mind games and shit, but don't worry about it unless he has 50 meter). Jin's pressure is unsafe, it's "safe" for about 3 attacks, then has to make a choice, all of which are unsafe (everything except jump) or don't have many options/can't continue pressure (jump). Jin's pressure does get good once he gets heat, since 236D>6D pretty much allow him to do anything he wants (+31 and +12 repectively), but 236D is slow and slow moving so you can jump/avoid it, or just try to stuff it all together (since ice never trades favorably), and when I say unsafe I include slow attacks.

Oh and I did forget something about Jin. Don't let him take you to the corner, everything he does becomes exponentially better, pressure and oki is scarier, and his damage will hurt. alot.

[skd]

also lmao at -11 at least

why attack after blocked 236A***. And -4 is only punishable on IB. 236D is not as obvious as 6D, you probably wont get "poked" out of it on reaction, and 5C 2C or 5C/2C 6C serves as a frame trap to discourage dat mash. 5C 236D is pretty much good if your opponent knows whats good or doesnt have a DP. after 5C cant you just IAD over him to bait a DP, and jC if he doesnt. But dont get yomi airthrown!

stayfreesmosh

[Beautiful Death]

Everyone make note that Jin's C DP is prettyyyyyy bad. In case this wasn't obvious. So feel free to pressure him on wakeup all the time unless he has at least 25 heat.

[smooshman]

also lmao at -11 at least

why attack after blocked 236A***. And -4 is only punishable on IB. 236D is not as obvious as 6D, you probably wont get "poked" out of it on reaction, and 5C 2C or 5C/2C 6C serves as a frame trap to discourage dat mash. 5C 236D is pretty much good if your opponent knows whats good or doesnt have a DP. after 5C cant you just IAD over him to bait a DP, and jC if he doesnt. But dont get yomi airthrown!

stayfreesmosh

-6 is punishable when there's no cancel.

[MashButtons]

Is it just me or does Jin have the worst hitbox in the game for Ragna? Sometimes I can't even get a single belial rep mid-screen without them falling out. Double is impossible unless your in corner. 5a - 5b - 6a - 5c just straight wiffed on the 5C, removing one of Ragna's best jab combos and cutting possible max damage down considerably.

[-Ladon-]

Is it just me or does Jin have the worst hitbox in the game for Ragna? Sometimes I can't even get a single belial rep mid-screen without them falling out. Double is impossible unless your in corner. 5a - 5b - 6a - 5c just straight wiffed on the 5C, removing one of Ragna's best jab combos and cutting possible max damage down considerably.

Jin has one of the best hitboxes for Ragna, Dloops are considerably easier because of his vertically large falling hitbox and you can 22c from farther away than most characters because of his huge lying down hitbox. I've never had a problem belialing jin either, seems like a personal thing.

[A.X.I.S.]

Is it just me or does Jin have the worst hitbox in the game for Ragna? Sometimes I can't even get a single belial rep mid-screen without them falling out. Double is impossible unless your in corner. 5a - 5b - 6a - 5c just straight wiffed on the 5C, removing one of Ragna's best jab combos and cutting possible max damage down considerably.

5A>5B>6A>5C is inconsistent and not optimal anyways.

[Blade]

This isn't perfected or anything, but I'm trying to make a list of normals that beat out or at least trade with Jin's normals (from poke-distance or closer). By 'beat out' I mean, you see the move coming out and react to it with a normal of your own.

5A (some distance): answer with anything once it's out.

5A (up close): 2A/2B maybe?

5A (dash primed): not sure...

6A (some distance): most things beat it unless it's fully out.

6A (up close): Not sure but it's kinda slow so 5A maybe unless it's part of mixup.

6A (dash primed): 5A possibly.

2A (some distance): jB/jC/5C, maybe?

2A (up close): not sure...

2A (dash primed): again, not sure...

5B (some distance): haven't tested, so not sure.

5B (up close): 5A/2A possibly? Otherwise it's kinda fast.

5B (dash primed): unsure.

6B (some distance): 6A/5B will beat it I believe.

6B (up close): 5A

6B (dash primed): 5A but otherwise unsure.

2B (some distance): 5B/5C maybe.

2B (up close): 2A possibly?

2B (dash primed): not sure.

5C (some distance): beats most ranged pokes, so I'm guessing jump normals would beat it in some situations.

5C (up close): same situation as above, so not really sure.

5C (dash primed): even worse to deal with than the other two, so not sure.

6C (some distance): possibly 5B.

6C (up close): 6A/2C maybe.

6C (dash primed): 2C/2B maybe?

2C (some distance): 5B works on its startup I think, 5C maybe too.

2C (up close): answer with 5A/2A/2B maybe.

2C (dash primed): probably most fast ground normals beat it, but otherwise not sure what's best.

3C (some distance): answer with 5B/5C

3C (up close): kinda fast so unsure.

3C (dash primed): also fast so unsure.

5D (some distance): pretty sure 5B beats this on reaction, 5C may trade/exchange with it.

5D (up close): 5A/6A maybe, 2C maybe as well.

2D (some distance): a dash-primed 5B can beat this I think, and maybe 5C if you're not too slow to see it coming.

2D (dash primed/distance): untested, so unsure.

2D (up close): always wiffs so you get a free punish/2C FC

6D (some distance): 5B will hit most of the time, but could trade/exchange if you react too slowly. dash-primed 2C also works in some situations.

6D (up close): 5A/6A/possibly 2C

6D (dash primed: possibly 2C otherwise unsure.

j.A (backwards): dash-primed 6A maybe?

j.A (forwards): 6A

j.A (airdash/IAD): 6A?/5A possibly.

j.B (backwards): unsure, possibly 5D(2).

j.B (forwards): preemptive 6A

j.B (airdash/IAD): 6A I think.

j.C (backwards): unsure, maybe 5B/dash-primed 6A.

j.C (forwards): 6A I think.

j.C (airdash/IAD): not sure since it's fast.

j.2C (backwards): not sure.

j.2C (forwards): 6A maybe.

j.2C (airdash/IAD): 5A/6A maybe.

j.D (backwards): not sure.

j.D (forwards): not sure.

j.D (airdash/IAD/crossup): reverse 6A maybe.

This list assumes you are on the ground most of the time, and also excludes use of Inferno Divider as a get-out-of-trouble move, though if you can RC it it's safer, but 5A up close/dash-primed 5C seem to be the worst to me as Jin can throw you from crouch normals. Also no mention of oki or what to do with normals that come out once you block the first hit.

If anyone has better input on Jin's normals than me (and you probably do), please say so.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Blade

[KayEff]

Would Ragna and Jin's moves be done at the same time? If so then this chart isn't very useful at all since we can just look at the frame data and see which moves have faster startups than others.

[Yggjrasil]

Would Ragna and Jin's moves be done at the same time? If so then this chart isn't very useful at all since we can just look at the frame data and see which moves have faster startups than others.

Dude, It's Blade. just let it go.

[-Ladon-]

I like how the most posted about matchups here are ones we have advantage in

[Yggjrasil]

ikorite. :/