[CS1-CSE] Valkenhayn General Discussion

[Kiba]

Just a heads up. I made a new changes thread because there's more information that's missing from Orion's post but I want everyone to be able to see it rather than dig for it.

I understand Nick is busy so I decided to create a new video thread which I can update.

[Dreize]

3 CP video threads and 2 CP changelog threads, hopefully forum-goer's wont get confused.

Also, I really liked the idea of having the 1st post in the new video thread dedicated to notable player matches.

[Kiba]

Yea honestly that's was one reason I was hesistant on making new threads. Looks like clutter atm

Regarding the video thread, thanks, glad you like it.

[bakahyl]

So i have to watch out for Valkenhayn's overhead attacks more than his low in CP? Because his wolf 5a is no longer a low (but has now a slower low attack in wolf form) and valkenhayn has a 2nd high attack in wolf form?

[Kiba]

So i have to watch out for Valkenhayn's overhead attacks more than his low in CP? Because his wolf 5a is no longer a low (but has now a slower low attack in wolf form) and valkenhayn has a 2nd high attack in wolf form?

As a standard, you can worry less about Valkenhayn's lows and blocking Valk's mixup is somewhat easier because of the lack of lows. This is the short answer.

This is the long answer however. Despite w[5A] not being a low anymore Valkenhayn can still find ways to hit you with a low. He could do w[5A] > 6DD > 2B, or more commonly, he could use w[5A] > 2D/3D > w[5C]. The point of the dash is to trick you into thinking that he will go high. w[5C] is also is a good confirm to hit with too as it goes into about 3.6k. The 2nd high in wolf form that you're referring to is w[j.C], which again, is a really strong confirm. So you can worry more about overheads, but you have to worry about the mixup as a whole since despite the lows, he still has the command grab, and human interchange mixups.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Kiba

[Dreize]

Might as well add on a little bit to what Kiba had said, there is definitely more to consider; but here is the gist of it:

Midscreen, you should almost always be blocking low against human mode (unless he's in the air obviously). Even if he does hit you with 6C he can't actually get a combo off of it unless he's in or close to the corner, plus it's rather slow so you should be able to block it on reaction a good amount of the time. However, new to CP, he can actually cancel 5C, 3C, and 2C into geschwind wolf, 5C being the most useful one in my opinion.

Corner, you should be blocking low against human mode for a good amount of the time. However, there are definitely exceptions to this case. If he has 50 meter, watch out for j.C > RC > j.C fuzzy set-ups, and his 6C plays a more prevalent role in the corner as well. Also, watch out for 5B > Jump Cancel > j.D oriented set-ups. 2A > 5D > w[236C] set-ups are also relatively ambiguous.

Midscreen and the Corner both work relatively the same with wolf mode, and you'll have to do some guessing. Even though he lost his fast 6 frame low that chains into itself 3 times, he still has many ways to open you up with lows. You'll always have to be weary of his command grab.

Here are 2 basic CP exclusive blockstrings off of the top of my head:

w[5A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > j.C] or w[5A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > Land > 5C]

w[5A x N > 5C] or w[5A x N > 6D > j.C]

In short, yes, you'll have to worry less about wolf mode lows. But be weary of his w[5C] and w[j.C], as they are both great normals that lead into solid damage.

[Kiba]

Ah I assumed Bakahyl was specifically referring to wolf mixup.

Nevertheless it does help to gain insight on Valk's mixup overall.

[hipikachu]

2A > 5D > w[236C] set-ups are also relatively ambiguous.

w[236C]

[Dreize]

w[236C]

The new input for our wolf exclusive command grab.

[hipikachu]

Wouldn't 2A > 5D > w[236C] leave you with an aerial grab though? Doesn't seem too ambiguous to me.

[Dreize]

Valkenhayn's human 2A is wolf cancellable. Thus, 2A > 5D > 236C is possible. In no way, shape, or form is Valkenhayn ever in the air during this string.

It's kinda like a tick throw set-up, but it shouldn't turn pink if done properly.

[hipikachu]

Oh right, I was thinking about special-canceling wolf mode. My bad.

EDIT: I don't even think it CAN pink. Startup time for the command grab shouldn't overlap with the blockstun from 2A

Edited March 3, 2013 by hipikachu

[Kiba]

You are correct.

You will never get a pink throw from that setup.

[Dreize]

Yes, that's why I stated that it's only "kinda" like a tick throw set-up.

[itsme]

How fast exactly is Valk's w[5C>CA] instant overhead?

[Shyn]

If performed perfectly, 15f. 2C>CA is faster at 13f, if performed perfectly, but I'm not sure how possible that is since the stick needs to return to neutral in 3f for that to work.

(Or rather I'm pretty sure this is how it is. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Edited April 20, 2013 by Shyn

[Sahgren]

w[1/2/3C~5c > j.A] is definitely possible; it even looks a bit smoother animation wise. It's just that 2 extra frames off of something that's more or less impossible to react to in the first place doesn't go all that far in justifying the jump in execution.

[itsme]

Oh neat, thanks. I actually thought it would be faster than the rising jC instant overhead (11f start up + 4f jump start up).

EDIT: Wait, so is the human rising jC 14 frame start up or 15 frame start up? I'm not sure if the jC comes out right at the 4f mark or right after the 4f mark.

Edited April 20, 2013 by itsme

[Dreize]

If done well, it should be 15 frames.

[itsme]

Alright, thanks.