[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Mascarpone]

noted: carl can full life with 2 resets and almost all of nirvana's meter. glad to know we're still dangerous as all hell lol.

also if the blue beat was from hit stun deterioration by that late in the combo there would have been several other blue beat points i think. so i'm with him on the mistake lol

[Akira-Shiro]

But u need to remember that u started the combo with 100 heat.... so unless you do it again starting with 0 heat u wont kno. Also Its easy to stop the 6b>2D reset :/ so if the person see it coming they can stop it by mashing DP

[JG]

But u need to remember that u started the combo with 100 heat.... so unless you do it again starting with 0 heat u wont kno. Also Its easy to stop the 6b>2D reset :/ so if the person see it coming they can stop it by mashing DP

About the 100 gauge, well i know with that combo you earn at least 50% of heat gauge, so for me the combo at the end is still reliable.

About the 6B+2]D[ if you feel that reset is easy to avoid with chars that have DP moves, then change it with another reset like j.2C, 2]D[ j.C crossup or vivance or.... who know. Also that reset is still used by japan player, especially ranrero or kyaku, so for me is a good tool.

No good player will be maching DP like crazy, just because you can not do 6B. And bait him with barrier block and 2]D[.

Maybe at this rate i should try to do a combo video xD.

Edited May 4, 2011 by JG

[Akira-Shiro]

Why high level players get hit by that is probably because they dont kno how to fight Carl....... After i was playing a few noobs i realised mashing is FTW when u fighting carl. But u gotta look for specific things, I played Isuyaru a while back & i stopped majority of his reset. But the reson i won was cause I was Valk,, An he didnt have experience against him. But Carls UB & crossups are easy to notice. You just gotta pay attention,

The 6B>2D i mean idk about you but i see sum big bitch in the background lifting her arm up bout to split my heqd open,, so i kno he going for the 6b>2D UB. I timed my DD so when he did 2b>Delay-6B I hit him with my DD so after that its like all he got is crossups & i see ada swing back read for a crossups 4D i spammed grab to catch him out Viv-a cause the timing to make sure the 6B>4D dont combo is slim. He did it right >.> i was just mashing grab "just in case" i kinda guessed at some parts but Carls UB game is kinda crapy in this one.

Which is why his dmg is much higher

[Akira-Shiro]

An u say no good player will be mashing, thats tru but good players also need to watch out for the signals of an UB. If u dont believe me use the playback function in traing. Do all carls UB's & i bet u can stop them all,,,, the crossups are harder to stop but easy to avoid, since Carl doesnt delay his attacks for crossups u can just jump spam out his crossups & hit him out his UB with a Dp/DD/grab.

I for one never found carl hard to fight,,, i mean he got the lowest Hp, Horrible Ground vs air punishes, No Dp, no Inv frams on his DD. lol i kinda laugh when ppl run from him cause in my head im thinking WTF are u afraid of. 9.5k hp. worst ground vs air game, iffy resets & UB's, & pathetic defensive options, & a top hat lol A TOP HAT THATS IN HIS HITBOX making Makoto having the smallest air hitbox.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[Zoogstin]

I for one never found carl hard to fight,,, i mean he got the lowest Hp, Horrible Ground vs air punishes, No Dp, no Inv frams on his DD. lol i kinda laugh when ppl run from him cause in my head im thinking WTF are u afraid of. 9.5k hp. worst ground vs air game, iffy resets & UB's, & pathetic defensive options, & a top hat lol A TOP HAT THATS IN HIS HITBOX making Makoto having the smallest air hitbox.

....

Carl is retarded. For instance in CS1 you could look at Carl in one of two ways: His mixups were too good for the amount of damage he could deal OR his damage was too high for the amount of mixups he had.

Also he and Nirvana could control space well together. People run away from Carl because the risk is so high for them if the Carl player knows what he's doing. You can't bull rush Carl without worrying about whether a 4D, 623D, or 8D is coming your way. Its just as much of a guess for the opponent as it is for us.

And don't get me started on Carl's CS1 j.B. LITERALLY THE BEST FATAL COUNTER MOVE IN THE GAME!!!!

*sigh* I'm gonna miss that little rascal.

[JG]

Dude, the only maching reliable on that 6B+2]D[ UB stuff is a DP or some stuff with invul frames. If you try to maching out with a normal then you are done, because 6B hit like counter. I do it against bang too many times in CS1 and even when he mash 5A he get counter, is not like i repeat always the same UB because i alternate that with vivance and ]2[. For example, 5B, 2B, 6B + 2]D[ or 5B, 2B, Viance A 2]D[.

The trick for making really hard to smash with a normal that UB, is making that 2]D[ come the earlist posible and then, in the posible, try to not delay or do it just a little, the 6B after 5B. That way the opp is still on block stun of 5B so if he mash a normal he will get counter.

Also, i never thought that 4]D[ reset is good. But if you alternate reset like somes that use 3]D[ with vivance or vivance 2]D[ is kinda hard to read.

Vid of people that i seeing eating that UB are jap player from acho. Im pretty confident that they know how to play against Carl, seriusly Ranrero and Essuke play a lot on that site.

Men, Carl for some reason is A tier in Ct, Cs1 and Cs2... that why people are scare of him, because if you end being in C-o-N you could lose 3/4 of your health.

....

Carl is retarded. For instance in CS1 you could look at Carl in one of two ways: His mixups were too good for the amount of damage he could deal OR his damage was too high for the amount of mixups he had.

Also he and Nirvana could control space well together. People run away from Carl because the risk is so high for them if the Carl player knows what he's doing. You can't bull rush Carl without worrying about whether a 4D, 623D, or 8D is coming your way. Its just as much of a guess for the opponent as it is for us.

And don't get me started on Carl's CS1 j.B. LITERALLY THE BEST FATAL COUNTER MOVE IN THE GAME!!!!

*sigh* I'm gonna miss that little rascal.

I totally agree with you. But about j.B is true that was a neat FC but hell i preffer a lot the new jC. Serisuly, Carl having a solid oki is really neat.

Is fun but if you check how the match agains Arakune work in CS1 compared to CS2 you wil see that is way more par now.

In the sense that, in CS1 was really hard to lock him in CoN. You can always put Nirvana at the middle of the screen and start jumping with j.A just for hit Araku when he try to teleport across the screen. But hell, the damage you get for doing that is so low and the sad thing is almost the only thing that you can do against Araku.

Now in CS2 if you hit a j.A you just add j.C and WOULA Arakune now is in CoN or in a situation that can lead Ara in CoN.

Dont get my wrong, i love j.B but hell Carl really needed a tool like j.C. At first i dindt like that move, but now is WOU. Especially if you still can do 2]D[ loop with j.C ^^

Edited May 5, 2011 by JG

[Mascarpone]

4D cross up reset isn't super amazing because it's pretty telegraphed but it does net 4-5k damage on connection in CS1 and leads into BnB UB resets in CS2 so i think it's a worthwhile trick to keep in the arsenal. And when you time it right it's actually not easy to block on reaction and has to be more of a psychic deal. And when that becomes the case and your opponent is thinking Oh i see a 4D happening, quick switch guard directions... you just don't cross them up. and they either get hit by it for being silly, or figure you out, block it, lose a primer and are still in a nasty pressure sandwich. You just turn the telegraphed reset into a guessing game. Its what i do against all my friends who've learned how to see through most of the text book shiningans. And frankly with the nerf to insta-block advantage in CS2 it'll be less risky in that regard. only downside will be nirvana's life loss in pressure strings racking up.

[Akira-Shiro]

U all are overestimating carl to much,,, & the Japs. Sure his stuff is pretty good i never said it wasnt. I also didnt say u could mass out with just anything. I most definitely said Dp/Grab/DD, wat idiot mashes a normal & when i say mass i dont mean press buttons randomly. What i ment was u repeatedly input a move till it comes out. U still kno what ur doing but u just rub it out. Also last i check its easy to get in on Carl, if u hit him Ada stops moving. So Brio/8D/4D are all defensive options mean carl is now running away. Im talkin neutral carl is crap his normals are pretty bad. Also Ada is only good at Ground vs air tactics, people can run u kno. Cause whenever im fighting carl its pointless trying to jump in all the time.

Example:

Its C-N-O this is how the positioning is at the beginning because carl jumped back at the start cause most characters can beat him at a mid range point. Then u use ada to try an get a CH off so u can combo & reset it into C-O-N.

[Akira-Shiro]

Its nothing stopping me from hitting both of u, it dont matter what u doing even brio. Cause i can hit u Brio will still come out so i swing again & tell ada STFU but u cant hit back cause u & Ada are both being hit. & that person is free to start their pressure. This is how u stop carl from running, u aint gotta worry about him IB'ing into a DD or Dp ?.? cause he aint got none. Even if carl is outside of the enemies range ?.? who the hell is gonna keep swinging at Ada so carl can get a CH with 5c.... NO. 5a ada so she''ll STFU & then keep going towards a now defencless carl that just tried to do a 5c to punish u for hitting Ada >.> but wiffed cause u only tapped her the keep going.

Carl doesnt have many options when he is on the defensive =/ its sad but tru.... if u do 'this' Carl does 'that'. But if u do 'that' =( all carl can do is block.

An ur right it is a guess but carl doesnt do enough dmg from a hit conferm as everyone else unless its his fatal..... This is why he had a fatal J.b to begin with

Edited May 5, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[Akira-Shiro]

An it doesnt matter how close u time it his UB will always have a gap that a Dp or DD can get threw. An even if u did do brio ull can only get like 2k from a Brio. ?.? & unless u telegraph the 8D u wont hit them first, cause the clap goes away if Ada is interrupted during the first few frams. Same for 4D except Ada wont stop they will just hit>land>block 4D. Brio is the only reliable one that u can do from reaction.

I dont mean to burst your bubble but Carl can only do 2 things Crossup & UB's. If ur in N-C-O a crossup is coming so i spam jump, if ur in C-O-N its tricky cause he can do both so u spam jump till u see a sign of a UB & u punish. Holding 9 will keep u blocking but will also make u jump if they try a crossup. & u stop holding 9 once u see a UB coming

A little of topic but yea JG i never thought Dio was all that either. His carl doesnt impress me =/ he is good but i just dont see him being all that.

Srry about all the separate post, im on my PS3 =/ its to early to be sitting in the computer room.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[Akira-Shiro]

This is why for the first time im truly afraid of carl in CS2 cause his new UB is jump spam safe, burst safe, Dp safe, & DD safe =( he is alot better in cs2 cause from a random air hit u can do J.c and still get oki. Oki from an air hit conferm he needed that so hard. & A move that forces people to stand while they are on the ground. Now people can no longer roll out of his oki. Like after a juggle combo..... & just to make thing clear i was referring to CS1 carl with all the insults. CS2 carl is godly IMO

[Zoogstin]

It is not as easy as you're making it for the opponent to shut Carl down as you're making it out to be. You can afford to have Nirvana get hit because she is a good punching bad due to the amount of damage she can take. CS2 Carl has some very nice things and some great buffs. But most of the problems you mentioned that CS1 Carl has still applies to CS2 Carl.

CS2 Carl might actually be better due to his stupid unblockable stuff (dispite Nirvana's defense nerf), but you're dismissing CS1 Carl like he was B-tier or something.

[Akira-Shiro]

Lol if his dmg wasnt so high then he'd be pretty low imo idk but they way carl works ur forced to play defensive. But he has not a single good defensive option. An no he is good, he just had some major flaws. In CS2 he no longer has iffy UB's he has an absolute UB. His anti-air has more inv so haku-men has to be careful. He also has 2 new moves that forces oki J.c & 3D. So yea his major flaws are now gone.

And lie an tell me u havnt fought a person where all they did was jump *cough cough* >.> most litchi's lol cause J.b isnt always safe

Edited May 5, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[Mascarpone]

If they always jump you end strings with 8D until a.) they learn not to or b.) they die. without being fancy i get 4k off of 8D hit confirms. the only flaw there is if they're smart they'll begin crouching under it which does actually put you in a tricky spot to continue pressure but if they're smart enough to figure that out they aren't gonna be auto-jumping out of everything you do in the first place.

Side note, they actually took that away from us in CS2 in lieu of losing 2 primers and being forced back into pressure, which is still decent, but not nearly as death-inducing.

Yes carl can die to scrubby stupid things if you don't adapt to them. But if you are playing someone who does stupid things he has just as many tools to fight against scrub tactics as he does to combat high level players. You just have to recognize what you're dealing with and adapt accordingly. Like you would with anything.

Point in case, tager can butter churn 360's / 720's out of allot of carls resets all day, but if they are doing nothing but spamming back dash -> 360 or just churning, you just end a reset with jump away + 2D. they wont recover from a 360 start up in time to block it, and i've yet to see thema void getting launched after they finish their back dash.

Anyone mashing A gets counter hit by the 4D crossup if u time it properly, and again that's 4-5k damage and 50 meter gain.

DP mashing ragna will clash with your 2B when u distance it properly and then you punish from there. DP mashing jin also gets bonked by 4D resets. DP mashing litchi you actually need to insta-block to get her properly as far as i can tell sadly, but oh well. we already knew she was a cheap bitch.

Would these work against a competent player? no probably not. once if u got lucky. Does it annihilate scrubby players? absolutely.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Mascarpone

[JG]

If they always jump you end strings with 8D until a.) they learn not to or b.) they die. without being fancy i get 4k off of 8D hit confirms. the only flaw there is if they're smart they'll begin crouching under it which does actually put you in a tricky spot to continue pressure but if they're smart enough to figure that out they aren't gonna be auto-jumping out of everything you do in the first place.

Side note, they actually took that away from us in CS2 in lieu of losing 2 primers and being forced back into pressure, which is still decent, but not nearly as death-inducing.

Yes carl can die to scrubby stupid things if you don't adapt to them. But if you are playing someone who does stupid things he has just as many tools to fight against scrub tactics as he does to combat high level players. You just have to recognize what you're dealing with and adapt accordingly. Like you would with anything.

Point in case, tager can butter churn 360's / 720's out of allot of carls resets all day, but if they are doing nothing but spamming back dash -> 360 or just churning, you just end a reset with jump away + 2D. they wont recover from a 360 start up in time to block it, and i've yet to see thema void getting launched after they finish their back dash.

Anyone mashing A gets counter hit by the 4D crossup if u time it properly, and again that's 4-5k damage and 50 meter gain.

DP mashing ragna will clash with your 2B when u distance it properly and then you punish from there. DP mashing jin also gets bonked by 4D resets. DP mashing litchi you actually need to insta-block to get her properly as far as i can tell sadly, but oh well. we already knew she was a cheap bitch.

Would these work against a competent player? no probably not. once if u got lucky. Does it annihilate scrubby players? absolutely.

Dude against lichi DP you dont need to Instant Block... seriusly just block first hit and then 6B and woula!. That same thing goes against Jin DP that consume gague. Block the first (with no barrier block) and then 6B.

[Akira-Shiro]

If they always jump you end strings with 8D until a.) they learn not to or b.) they die. without being fancy i get 4k off of 8D hit confirms. the only flaw there is if they're smart they'll begin crouching under it which does actually put you in a tricky spot to continue pressure but if they're smart enough to figure that out they aren't gonna be auto-jumping out of everything you do in the first place.

Side note, they actually took that away from us in CS2 in lieu of losing 2 primers and being forced back into pressure, which is still decent, but not nearly as death-inducing.

Yes carl can die to scrubby stupid things if you don't adapt to them. But if you are playing someone who does stupid things he has just as many tools to fight against scrub tactics as he does to combat high level players. You just have to recognize what you're dealing with and adapt accordingly. Like you would with anything.

Point in case, tager can butter churn 360's / 720's out of allot of carls resets all day, but if they are doing nothing but spamming back dash -> 360 or just churning, you just end a reset with jump away + 2D. they wont recover from a 360 start up in time to block it, and i've yet to see thema void getting launched after they finish their back dash.

Anyone mashing A gets counter hit by the 4D crossup if u time it properly, and again that's 4-5k damage and 50 meter gain.

DP mashing ragna will clash with your 2B when u distance it properly and then you punish from there. DP mashing jin also gets bonked by 4D resets. DP mashing litchi you actually need to insta-block to get her properly as far as i can tell sadly, but oh well. we already knew she was a cheap bitch.

Would these work against a competent player? no probably not. once if u got lucky. Does it annihilate scrubby players? absolutely.

It aint that simple in order to do a 8D & get them with it u gotta be in C-O-N...... how u gonna do that without traping them. How u gonna trap them if they wont stay out the air, im not talking simple scrub tactics i mean actual tactics against carl that he just cant stop, and jumpping is one of them. Its hard to catch people if your in N-C-O

[Mascarpone]

so you camp C N O and get them to jump into you?

[Akira-Shiro]

Lol thats what i was expecting someone to say,,,,, i see to many people do that its kinda sad that that is the only safe option remaining its pathetic. Which is why i considered him pathetic

[Mascarpone]

so all zoning characters are pathetic. gotcha.

[Akira-Shiro]

Sorry i wouldnt consider him a zoner, he is good at spacing but zoning.... I think not, and yea i consider zoners pathetic. But keep in mind the character doesnt determine how u play them. U can RTSD with anyone, all characters do their max dmg from a 5b range.... no one does their max full screen away.

[GenoWhirl]

>Lambda's 236C

>Litchi's 6B

>Hazama does rad shit from ouroboros

?

[Akira-Shiro]

But that isnt max dmg,, cause thats what i said >.> lambda is only getting 5k-6k from 236C in the corner, haz is getting 4k-5k with a CH D & 100 , and we all kno litch gets 5k from almost all but once again none of this is their max dmg.. Because haz's 6c which gives 8k u need to be close, lambda's Clamity blade that gives 8k you need to be close, and litchis 2c which gives her 7.5k u need to be close. None of them could get there max at full distance. In CT rachel could, and you see what happend to her after the patch. Full distance max damage just doesnt exsist in the world of blazeblue srry.

And in CS2 people are getting even less dmg from long range attacks. Haz has horrible proration on his D's, Lambda has horrible proration on her D's, litchi no longer can combo with 6b mid screen..... I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but all the zoning characters are getting thier zoning tools nerfed, take a look at CT lambda(Nu) & CS lambda long range moves were nerf. Arks doesnt like people turtling and still getting big damage. Less risk equals less dmg, More risk equals more dmg. All fatals are close/mid, the longest reaching fatal is Mu-12s >.> and she is still in range of most 5b's & 5c's. Arks isnt fond of people turtling, which is why this game is the only fighting game that gives a penalty for constant running.....

Edited May 7, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[GenoWhirl]

Actually, Litchi's 6B is one of her best starters, and so is Lambda's 236C (not to mention much safer than calamity blade, and meterless!)

[Akira-Shiro]

I never said is wasnt, lambdas 236c is her best starter besides clamity blade. & no litchis 2c is her best starter. Her 6b is her 3rd best starter,CH j.c is her second best starter. But that is besides the point, stop refering to CS1 alone. Because it was simy flawed, this is why CS2 even exsist. And in CS2 her 6b is useless inless your in the corner soo thats another nerf on her part with long range attacks. Same with haz, his oroboros is now his worst prorating move same with lambdas, 5D its proration was nerfed. Along with alot of the casts long rang attacks, they all got nerfed.