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[Astaroth136]

You're forgetting his persona swipe > backdash, his persona anti air grab > jump aways (if it's fast enough, i'm not sure) And why does nobody care that he has a command grab set-up that you can only avoid by spending 50 meter or bursting, and even with 50 meter he still has options to stuff Elizabeth? His oki completely denies blocking on wake-up! WTF?

Unless it's counterhit or 25 meter is used, 5C (the downward swipe) nets no combo. Besides, plenty of things beat 5C on your wakeup, so it's a terrible option.

Anti-air grab on wakeup is weak too, unless 236C+D is used waaaay before you tech.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Unless it's counterhit or 25 meter is used, 5C (the downward swipe) nets no combo. Besides, plenty of things beat 5C on your wakeup, so it's a terrible option.

Anti-air grab on wakeup is weak too, unless 236C+D is used waaaay before you tech.

I'm talking reads; I have to rely on them, why doesn't everyone else? Say you know your opponent's going to backdash. You use 2C (I'm in the lab now, that's what I was actually talking about) Your opponent is dragged to you(whilst taking 1.2k), and you can start a block string. Guess what that blockstring nets you? An inescapable (without expending resources) 2.6k-3k. That's freaking 3.8k-4.2k off of a good read with 0-25 meter. Or you could do a legitimate combo, for all I know 2C leads into bigger damage in itself.

[Astaroth136]

2C is crazy negative on block. Blocking beats 2C easily. No one uses 2C with Kanji oki anyway.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Okay, I'll cede that point. But how am I supposed to deal with him in general? Say I lock him down with maziodyne. Maziodyne B? J214A/B Punish, he's now in on me. Now I have to instantly get him out of my face or be forced to block (and subsequently lose 40% of my health) I can use Thanatos, but guess what? His mixup after 5C (her primary gtfaway tool) is 3/4's prediction, 1/4's reactable. Really all you need to do is sit there, block, and punish with a jumping normal with decent range. Kanji's jb is more than adequate for this. He literally has to jump back and hit jb. He'll evade 2 possibilities(with the option to punish afterward depending on the spacing), outright punish one (ironically the anti-air option), and clash with the 4th. 5D is reactable, as I mentioned, so when you see the startup you could just choose to punish it if your reflexes are good enough.

Honestly you just have to Tager it. Slow walk and eventually I'll lose my Persona and you can run in, make me block, and kill me.

Maziodyne A? He can punish with D. (Yeah, I get that it's very spacing specific, but spacing is a basic part of fundamentals. A Kanji worth their salt would always be spaced to use their anti zoning tools against a zoner.) Now I'm paralyzed or blocking, and he's got time to get in on me and (guess what?) make me block. There goes another 40%. And this is with minimal meter usage; I'm assuming with more he could easily ramp that up to 60-70% How am I supposed to play a "7-3" match-up properly when Kanji has an answer for every single one of my tools?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[LastStarSaviour]

OH YES! LET'S!

Standing Damage Mid-screen (No counter-hit and no meter):

- 1455 (auto-combo)

- 1647 (BnB)

- 3231 (5D combo)

- 2687 (j.D combo)

- 4.2k (fatal counter)

Crouching Damage Mid-screen (No counter hit and no meter):

- 2284 (basic BnB)

- 4.3k (fatal counter)

Standing Damage Corner (No counter hit, no meter):

- 1455 (auto combo)

- 1647 (BnB)

- 5.7k (fatal counter/50 sp)

Crouching damage Corner (No counter hit, no meter):

- 3754 (BnB)

- 5.7k (fatal counter/50 heat)

Leaving this here since you asked Astaroth.

Edit: I can't punish 2C

Edited August 24, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Astaroth136]

Edit: I can't punish 2C

Just tested. You can grab punish it if it's done mid-range.

[LastStarSaviour]

I thought you were referring to on block. It can be punished on whiff.

[Klein]

Seeing complaints about grapplers. Y'all are bad.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

...Yeah, you clearly didn't read a single thing there.

[Klein]

...Yeah, you clearly didn't read a single thing there.

All I had to read was how much it sucks being put at a disadvantage for getting knocked down.

[LastStarSaviour]

What is it with people and defending grapplers?

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Yeah. And that's normal for grapplers, or anyone in general. But his sheer amount of options on oki is silly, and it's not because he's a grappler. A grappler typically puts you in 50/50 situations that are actually manageable if you can read your opponent. Kanji is not just some grappler, so I'd like a logical counterpoint from the next person who feels like pointing out "LOL IT'S A GRAPPLER"

You're missing the point where he can NEGATE zoning, PUNISH you for blocking a fucking BLOCKstring, and make you guess out of 50 different reads on wake-up. Tell me, please. How the fuck does that mean I'm simply bitching about a grappler?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Milln]

2C is crazy negative on block. Blocking beats 2C easily.

I can't punish 2C

Just tested. You can grab punish it if it's done mid-range.

I thought you were referring to on block. It can be punished on whiff.

I have no idea what happened here ^

@Okizeme games: Kanji's reward for actually making his way in and managing to score a knockdown is forcing you to make a decision. If it's the wrong one versus the decision he made, then he wins. Other characters have similar oki plans. Grapplers in most games usually force the game of "Am I going to grab you or not?" KOF Clark/Daimon(not so much Daimon)... Zangief... Kanji is no exception. He actually has tools to keep up with the rest of the cast, giving him a chance to not be bottom tier forever like most grapplers are doomed to be considered for.

@Volpe getting grabbed for blocking. Are you talking about his "YOU WANT SOME?" when you say getting grabbed for blocking? That thing has no hitstun or blockstun, that's why he's command grabbing you. You can't get grabbed for 6 frames after you come out of blockstun or hitstun. If you block it, you can jump the grab if you sense one, dude.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Milln

[Klein]

You know every character in every game can grab you in a blockstring, right? Just most grabs nowadays are very techable.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Except this implies it's actually difficult for him to get in. He's got multiple anti zoning tools for this, and it isn't even a matter of 'am I going to grab or not?'. It's a matter of will I fast grab? Slow grab? Dp? Blockstring into grab? And yet he's STILL considered bottom tier. Because grappler.

You know every character in every game can grab you in a blockstring, right? Just most grabs nowadays are very techable.

Yeah, but every character in the game doesn't have an inescapable command grab that can do 3k.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Astaroth136]

Guys, Kanji's ONLY difference between all other grapplers is that he has a dp (that also leaves a favorable status effect). The oki complaints make no sense, because you have a counter-option for every one of his options. Elizabeth's low health means she is high risk/high reward, and with that health, you can't gamble much against Kanji.

What is it with people and defending grapplers?

Scrubs complain about grapplers.

[Astaroth136]

On a serious note, you guys got bodied by a Kanji player last night, and now you're calling the character out? I'd understand if either of you used Akihiko, but Liz and Mitsuru?! Just level up until you start bodying me and other Kanji's for free.

[Klein]

...Anti-airs don't get you in. Footsies game>jumping in all the time.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

On a serious note, you guys got bodied by a Kanji player last night, and now you're calling the character out? I'd understand if either of you used Akihiko, but Liz and Mitsuru?! Just level up until you start bodying me and other Kanji's for free.

It's not about losing to Kanji, lol. . . I could've beat him, it's just that he's the one who showed me you can't even BLOCK against him. The thing is, you can't "just level up" and body Kanji. He has answers for EVERYTHING. Zoning? If he's spaced correctly, he's got answers. Mix-up? EVERYBODY has answers for Liz's mixup, it's supposed to be punishable due to her playstyle! The only problem is, Kanji's punishes completely reject Elizabeth's "I'm going to punish you for hurting Thanatos'" style because he can be out of range for it.

I'm fine with oki, it makes sense and it's supposed to be like that. But when you have 5-6 different options to the defensive player's three, and several of those tools cover MULTIPLE OPTIONS, it gets really frustrating.

...Anti-airs don't get you in. Footsies game>jumping in all the time.

But they do! That's my problem, lol. I'm not allowed to pressure Kanji at all because if I do he has an answer for it. I have to wait and spam maziodyne on reaction to every fucking thing he does, and it gets stupid. Like I said, it's retarded when a match-up hinges on a single tool. I could beat every Kanji for free if I sat back and waited for him to twitch so I could maziodyne. But what the fuck kind of fight is that? It's just as stupid as Mitsuru winning for free because she times her coup droits properly.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Klein]

That awkward moment when you guys realize good characters have an option for every situation.

And Mitsuru timing her droits means you you need to get better at timing your jumps/whatever available option.

Also, beacause I read backwards: if you're fighting a kanja and winning by mashing lasers, can't they just run or jump>block until they get in? One tool doesn't tend to win matches.

[LastStarSaviour]

Scrubs complain about grapplers.

How the fuck? What kind of logic is that? Again, i'm not saying the whole match-up against Kanji is stupid. But the gap between the traditional grappler I know of and Kanji seem to differ quite a bit. Not to mention knock-down situations against him is much different as opposed to other grapplers, but I suppose that makes me a scrub? Wtf?

Also, Mitsuru vs Kanji is not that far in my favor. Being good doesn't mean being unwinnable.

Anyways, this discussion went from being about knock-down situations against Kanji into people apparently people being free for not being good at a slightly better match-up. As if player skill and having the resources necesary to be an adequate character just doesn't apply.

Also, no one is calling a character out due to losing to them. Last night had nothing to do with the origins of the conversation. Whatever, I don't know why I bother to post anymore.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

That awkward moment when you guys realize good characters have an option for every situation.

And Mitsuru timing her droits means you you need to get better at timing your jumps/whatever available option.

Also, beacause I read backwards: if you're fighting a kanja and winning by mashing lasers, can't they just run or jump>block until they get in? One tool doesn't tend to win matches.

Nope. The point is I can wait for them to try something. Jump at me? Maziodyne. Anti-zoning lightning bolt? Maziodyne. The best bet is to walk toward me, instant block everything, and slowly work your way in. Then I could sacrifice Thanatos to get some space and distance myself from him again, all the while making every inch gained a tedious struggle. It's a stupid fucking way to play a fighter, imo.

There are no options against Mitsuru's coup droit because they time it so that they're punishing both you AND Thanatos. This destroys Elizabeth's pressure, does a good chunk of damage, and eventually lands you in the corner. My only option then is to try and outpoke her. . .Yeah, I'm gonna go outpoke Mitsuru.

[Astaroth136]

It's not about losing to Kanji, lol. . . I could've beat him, it's just that he's the one who showed me you can't even BLOCK against him. The thing is, you can't "just level up" and body Kanji. He has answers for EVERYTHING.

What do you mean by "you can't even block against him?" That's how all grapplers work... punishing blocks. I think you guys just aren't used to facing a grappler with a fast grab. His C grab is 3 frames, and it can grab a character that's landing while they're still holding up (test it in training).

That was one problem Tager had. His grabs were on the slower side, but BB was an overall slower game anyway. Tager had a few great pokes that could hit confirm from even max range, and that's what Kanji lacks. His normals are ASS.

[Klein]

Star, do you have ANY grappler experience outside of Tager? Just asking.

And if you have no options against one tool, then you're playing a bad character, or you're playing a character wrong. Those are the only options. And on lasers vs Kanji: grapplers vs zoners are supposed to be a tedious pain. If it wasn't, then grapplers would be too strong in matchups vs zoners. Catch my drift?

[Jackie Chandler]

Once I get to uploading the rest of these videos, we can all go back to talking why Yu is dumb again~.