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[Seiki]

That's not the point. He won't know how Izayoi or Noel plays until he actually plays them himself. Either character might look fun but they might not feel fun, and at least to me, it actually being fun is more important. I can understand making a choice between two characters who have been in previous BB iterations since you know how their general playstyle is like and you can form a knowledgeable opinion, but Izayoi is a new character.

This of course is assuming you are choosing based on gameplay.

And it's not like playing multiple characters is a deficit. Playing a little bit of Jin, Haz, Makoto, Relius, and Rags helped me learn the matchup with Bang in ways I couldn't have from playing against them, reading from data or watching vids. When you play as other characters you are put in situations that make you struggle and that helps expose their weaknesses. So when I play with Bang I have more confidence in what situations I have the upper hand.

[Jackie Chandler]

Until life bitch-slaps the controller out of your hand.

YOU BETTER PREPARE YOURSELF, JACKIE. WHEN CP COMES OUT I'M GOING TO ASTRAL THE SHIT OUT OF YOU. I won't have a real run-back for grand finals until I shatter the moon with your corpse mid-tourney. <3

I don't even care how annoying my posts get, I can't stress enough how great it feels to have that competitive flame rekindled after I thought it was going to be lost forever.

Really though, that's great to hear. I'm really hoping a bunch of people pick BB back up once CP comes out, because I'll feel the same way. Just don't be too crushed when I'm the one to Astral you instead. ;3

Holy fuck. 6k meterless off a non-fatal counter hit? Man, just main Izayoi AND Noel. We all know you're gonna play like 5 characters in the end anyway.

I was about to say this, too. 6K meterless mid-screen off a CH 5C. That's ridiculous. I don't think most characters have that potential in the CORNER yet, let alone with meter.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

That's not the point. He won't know how Izayoi or Noel plays until he actually plays them himself. Either character might look fun but they might not feel fun, and at least to me, it actually being fun is more important. I can understand making a choice between two characters who have been in previous BB iterations since you know how their general playstyle is like and you can form a knowledgeable opinion, but Izayoi is a new character.

This of course is assuming you are choosing based on gameplay.

All I said was she has good tools, lol. But I think it's pretty easy to tell if a character's going to be fun for you or not, personally. Watching how their playstyle works in mid to high level matches can give you a feel for the character before you've even picked them up yourself.

I've done this for Leona in KOF, Aoko and Archetype Earth in Melty Blood, Zenia in Arcana Heart, King/Armored King in Tekken, Hilde and Xiba in SCV, and Elizabeth in Persona. Aoko, Elizabeth, and Zenia especially ended up feeling like they were tailor-made for me when I finally did play them, and the rest were definitely fun.

The only game I wasn't able to do this in was Guilty Gear, but I think GG isn't the kinda game I'll be able to just pick up and play.

Izayoi's obviously gonna be retarded fun if you've got the execution. With her mobility, robust toolset, the fluidity of her normals, and the potential for crazy mind games due to her excellent teleports, I think you can tell if you're the kind of person who'd enjoy playing her or not even if you haven't actually tried her out yet.

And it's not like playing multiple characters is a deficit. Playing a little bit of Jin, Haz, Makoto, Relius, and Rags helped me learn the matchup with Bang in ways I couldn't have from playing against them, reading from data or watching vids. When you play as other characters you are put in situations that make you struggle and that helps expose their weaknesses. So when I play with Bang I have more confidence in what situations I have the upper hand.

Never said it was; I'm of the same mind that learning multiple characters will help you understand your character's strengths and weaknesses even better, as well as give you a better appreciation of the meta game.

[Seiki]

Sigh...I guess you guys play videogames vicariously...

[LastStarSaviour]

I was about to say this, too. 6K meterless mid-screen off a CH 5C. That's ridiculous. I don't think most characters have that potential in the CORNER yet, let alone with meter.

Carl has been reported to have 5k+ BnBs and so does Tao apparently. I'm really liking where they're trying to take Noel honestly. She has oki now, her neutral game suffered a bit now that optic barrel doesn't knock down on hit, but I still think that the new 2D more than makes up for that. In my opinion, I think it'll turn out to be better than optic barrel in terms of strengthening her neutral game. The damage is just icing on the cake for me. I dug the amount of damage she did before the discovery but i'm fine with this as well.

@Naimat: Noel's never really been a hard character to re-learn for me throughout all of her iterations. At most the thing that always changes is her combos, but i've never had a problem adjusting. This version may be different since now with the new tools we will have to evaluate situations we normally couldn't afford to worry about. For instance, who we could play air-to-air with, or who outpoked us, etc...

I say all this to say, you are pretty much right in it's just going to come down to who I have more fun with. I like the idea of keeping Noel as a pocket character for casuals and whatnot, but I also like the idea of playing someone new to help MTN get a grasp of a match-up that seems like it's going to need to be explored deeply. I'll just wait for the game to hit and let the chips fall where they may.

@Volpe: Good to see that drive back son. I really want to put a lot of effort into learning CP now and i'll defnintely help you learn Makoto's match-ups as best possible.

This is probably asking for too much but i'd love to see an overall more competitive MTN, especially when it comes to BB. I'm tired of always seeing Naimat, Jackie, Astaroth, or me making top three or taking a tournament. Especially since I know we have capable players who can place high. That's one reason our Gear tournaments aren't as hype for me. While it is nice to see the high-level play in grand finals, it's just a turn-off to always know that it's just going to be Phil or Tad taking it. The same goes for the East Coast (yeah SKD and LK, i'm calling you niggas out). I won't press the issue too much, but it is something that always lingered in the back of my mind even during my days with Persona.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Sigh...I guess you guys play videogames vicariously...

I thought you were learning to be open to other viewpoints?

In the end, everybody has their own method for choosing characters. What works for one person doesn't always work for everyone else, and vice versa. But a lot of people I play with can accurately pick out their mains from gameplay footage alone. Even after fiddling with the other characters, I find that one's first instinct when they feel that spark of "I want to play this character" is usually correct.

After all, what was it that made you interested in subbing Jin and Hazama in the first place?

This is probably asking for too much but i'd love to see an overall more competitive MTN, especially when it comes to BB. I'm tired of always seeing Naimat, Jackie, Astaroth, or me making top three or taking a tournament.

Oh, don't worry about that. I'm going to rectify this error as soon as CP hits America.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Jackie Chandler]

This is probably asking for too much but i'd love to see an overall more competitive MTN, especially when it comes to BB. I'm tired of always seeing Naimat, Jackie, Astaroth, or me making top three or taking a tournament. Especially since I know we have capable players who can place high.

I agree with this. We have such incredibly talented people in our community, and it'd be great to see some new faces place high. I don't mean to imply our scene isn't competitive, though- it most certainly is, at least the way I see it. And I don't want people to think I'm saying they aren't trying- I'm sure they are. I just want to see more people tap into that hidden potential I know they have. Do your research, practice in Training Mode, take that knowledge and execution into a real match, find out where you can improve, and convert everything you've learned into habits. Rinse, repeat. I'll be looking forward to seeing what everyone has to offer. :D

Oh, don't worry about that. I'm going to rectify this error as soon as CP hits America.

Just don't expect us to make it easy on you~. >:3

Also, I have dibs on this Ragna palette. Nobody can play this color Ragna in Tennessee except for me, under penalty of Astral.

'Cause they got rid of the Orange/Red Ragna colors.

[LastStarSaviour]

@Jackie: White and gold all day man!

[Seiki]

@Volpe: It's great that you can pick your main just by spectating, but when you give Star gameplay reasons as to who he should pick it just seems contradictory. You don't know the effect of how a character will play until you have played said character. It's like saying, "I saw a doctor do brain surgery so now I am credible enough to teach others how to perform it".

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

@Volpe: It's great that you can pick your main just by spectating, but when you give Star gameplay reasons as to who he should pick it just seems contradictory. You don't know the effect of how a character will play until you have played said character. It's like saying, "I saw a doctor do brain surgery so now I am credible enough to teach others how to perform it".

I gave Star gameplay reasons because he had already decided he was interested in Izayoi. He had already made the decision that she looked fun to play. It only follows logically that if he intends to focus on one character to learn the game with from the beginning, it should be the character he has A) already designated as one of his possible choices and B) hasn't had prior experience with. The fact that she's GUNDAM is only icing on the cake.

Also, that analogy is terribly inaccurate. It implies I'm entirely unfamiliar with fighting game mechanics and the way characters interact with them, and that I presume to teach Star how to play his character. In reality, maybe I don't know exactly how Izayoi will play, but I've watched her enough to know what kind of options and tools she has. I can already see some potential shenanigans you can pull with her, and that's just rudimentary gameplay. I'm not exactly claiming that I can master a character just from watching them play.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Seiki]

I mean no offense by this but the amount of substance you can draw from spectating is so small and hypothetical it to me seems meaningless to say until a more flushed out informative opinion can be made.

So yeah you may know what a scalpel is but do you know how to open the skull and which part of the brain is safe to operate? There is a huge part of the picture you are missing, called experience, and so yeah you may have played Extend but you haven't played Izayoi and CP has had some pretty significant mechanic changes you just can't create a good enough frame of reference to fit an understanding of these newa additions.

You aren't teaching him but you are doing the next closest thing and that is advising him based on weak information.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I mean no offense by this but the amount of substance you can draw from spectating is so small and hypothetical it to me seems meaningless to say until a more flushed out informative opinion can be made.

None taken. I don't do that bitch nigga shit where people aren't allowed to speak candidly.

The thing is, I'm not claiming I understand all the ins and outs of a character. All I'm saying is I can look at a character's gameplay and tell whether or not their playstyle fits me. Failing that, I can tell which character is most fitting relative to the rest of the cast. This isn't to say that I fully understand that character and how they're supposed to be played. I just know that they'll be fun to play at a basic level, and eventually learn on a more proficient level.

So yeah you may know what a scalpel is but do you know how to open the skull and which part of the brain is safe to operate? There is a huge part of the picture you are missing, called experience, and so yeah you may have played Extend but you haven't played Izayoi and CP has had some pretty significant mechanic changes you just can't create a good enough frame of reference to fit an understanding of these newa additions.

The analogy still doesn't fit. I don't know the first thing about medical practice in general, but I do know my way around a fighter. I know how a certain character can apply their tools in a match, and I can come up with basic tactics based on what options a character has available to them. If I was a med student, that might make more sense, but even then I've never once claimed that watching gameplay footage teaches me the ins and outs of a character. All I've ever claimed is that it teaches me enough about a character to know their tools and whether or not their playstyle is fitting for me.

You aren't teaching him but you are doing the next closest thing and that is advising him based on weak information.

This isn't what I'm doing at all. I have enough data to conclude that Izayoi is his best option between her and Noel.

What I know:

-Star wants to play Noel

-Star wants to play Izayoi

-Star can relearn Noel in literally 30 minutes to an hour. He's done this before.

-Star wants to begin CP with a single character to familiarize himself with the mechanics while he learns his character.

-The mechanics, while new, probably won't give him much trouble either.

-Starting fresh with a new character will take time.

-Learning a new character can improve his overall skill as a player.

It only makes sense to start with the character you're weakest with from the beginning, since the sooner you pick them up the sooner you'll master them. I'm simply telling him to tackle the more difficult project first and get it out of the way. In what way is my information weak? How is my conclusion flawed?

Edited December 14, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Seiki]

it teaches me enough about a character to know their tools

You are missing the point of the analogy. In order to know their tools you have to know their application. How can you understand how to apply something without applying it yourself. Again, you may know that a scalpel cuts but that's different than knowing how to cut with a scalpel.

We are just going in circles; trying to make our point clearer to the other person, but we both perceive things at different focal lengths, so we probably won't see eye to eye.

I need rest.

[Jackie Chandler]

The abridged version of this:

Naimat: "You can't make suggestions based on observations!"

Volpe: "wut"

[LuminAbyss]

I will pick this if we ever mirror match Jackie fight me.

[Jackie Chandler]

I will pick this if we ever mirror match Jackie fight me.

Pfffff, it's k. I'll steal your CT Green colors whenever I'm fighting you Lumin~.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

You are missing the point of the analogy. In order to know their tools you have to know their application. How can you understand how to apply something without applying it yourself. Again, you may know that a scalpel cuts but that's different than knowing how to cut with a scalpel.

I'm missing the point of the analogy because you made an analogy that doesn't fit in the context of the situation. The ones you've made so far imply that I'm stating I can master a character and their tools just because I've seen them play. Whether that's what you meant or not is irrelevant, because that's what your analogy draws connections to. If we're going by your analogy, you fail to realize that I already know how to use a scalpel, and just because this other scalpel is a different size and shape it doesn't mean I'm going to be at a loss as to how to use it. I'm not going to be able to grasp a point if you can't deliver it clearly, concisely, and in a manner that is actually relevant.

I can understand how to apply a new character's tools because tools have usages that are universal to all fighters. Just because a character is new and their tools are slightly different doesn't mean an experienced player can't see how to use their tools just by being aware they exist. If you can't see that, then that's your personal failing as a player.

It sounds like you're telling me that even though I've made use of the same kind of tools in other games and with other characters, I can't comprehend how they're used with a new character simply because of the fact that they're a new character. This doesn't really make sense. Your point would make more sense if a character had brand new tools never before seen in a fighting game, but that rarely happens. Izayoi has basic projectiles and teleports. It isn't difficult to figure out how to use them effectively.

We are just going in circles; trying to make our point clearer to the other person, but we both perceive things at different focal lengths, so we probably won't see eye to eye.

I agree that we're going in circles, but it's because you aren't properly countering my points. You're just saying that I can't do things, and I'm pointing out that I can.

First you said that I can't learn anything from simply watching a character's gameplay. I disagreed and pointed out that you can learn a character's toolset by seeing it in action. Then you said I can't learn how to practically apply a character's tools just by watching them. I disagree, since when you watch a player who knows their character use their tools, you're practically receiving step-by-step instructions on the usage of that tool.

For example - I've never played Makoto, but just from watching her I understand how I can use her orb to my advantage. It controls the space in front of her if she doesn't launch it so the opponent can't jump in at will. Now, this is just a rudimentary usage of this tool, and I'm sure as I actually learn her I'll figure out ways to apply it more effectively, but I've still figured out how I can use it.

I've also already figured out a possible way to use Izayoi's teleports to make her transformations safer than they already are, (dem frames be ridiculous) because it's a basic usage of that tool that anyone with experience playing a fighter can take advantage of.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Papstr]

Pfffff, it's k. I'll steal your CT Green colors whenever I'm fighting you Lumin~.

I went hunting for the palettes for CP Ragna and saw no CT green. Perhaps I am blind, or was lied to. Thankfully Ragna is still sporting pink so who cares about inferior colors anyway

[Jackie Chandler]

I went hunting for the palettes for CP Ragna and saw no CT green. Perhaps I am blind, or was lied to. Thankfully Ragna is still sporting pink so who cares about inferior colors anyway

You were looking at color palettes 7-16.

These are color palettes 1-6.

[Klein]

I'm gonna learn how to B-C-Hell's Fang just to steal your colors Jackie.

[Jackie Chandler]

I'm gonna learn how to B-C-Hell's Fang just to steal your colors Jackie.

5B > 5C > Hell's Fang Ragna requires learning?

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Y'all got it all wrong. Clearly the only Ragna colors worth choosing are Ichigo and Narukami.

[Jackie Chandler]

Just when I was thinking everybody's WANTING to get Astral'd.

[LastStarSaviour]

Nobody is touching my Ichigo colors.

Also, i'm claiming Izayoi's purple and white and gold colors. Too swag, too hip, too cool, too fly!

[Klein]

5B > 5C > Hell's Fang Ragna requires learning?

I meant the exact rangeof 5B because that's all I need.