[CS2] Iron Tager vs Ragna

[A.X.I.S.]

Lets get this show on the road.

I'll update this post when I can.

Name subject to change.

Lets Talk buck up and do this shall we!

Problem/Solution

• -5B- Ragna's go to poke leads to good damage, has nice range and it comes out in 8F IE hella fast and hella dangerous BUT it extends his hitbox meaning we can 360A through it, if its poorly spaced 5A it, becareful backdashing it, he has stupid active frames on it.
  
• -6B/GH overhead- This is the main reason you think the match is hard or why you lose.
  6B in most places can be 360/720'd, MTW if you read it right but if you are scared just block it.
  GH is risky and the reward isn't worth it unless CH'd or RC'd, You can actually 360A/720 through GH or you can backdash punish it, heck if you block GH you can still 360 assuming he doesn't do the floow up and if he does the follow up then make sure you block it...make him feel pain.
  -Note- If you need more info on where to expect 6B then look at the next post I made in this thread.
  
• -5C>2C- Pfft IB the 5C to make it unsafe, IB the 2C to make anything he does after 360/720 punish, if he makes 2C whiff then spark him for having his 5C IB'd.
  
• -Deadspike- Breaks primers and +3 not really a thread because Tager can beat his +3 360A or AA if he jumps, under normal circumstance if you see deadspike you should sledge it, you can be as late as you want with it too.
  
• -Inferno Divider- Bait it punish it, you can whiff a 5A to make him want to do it.
  punish with 360B or 5C>6A>2C>collider>whatevers.
  
  
  Close/Mid Range
  
  
  
  • Be patient and take your time, Ragna's pokes will auto stuff yours if he spaces them well, but don't ever play passive, let him know you are not afraid to hit him for doing stuff.
    
  • 2D is good way in if Ragna is waiting for you to mess up or isn't moving around at this range.
    You can AA Ragna with 2A/2C and sometimes collider.
    
  • Becareful tossing out 5D at this range, Ragna can auto punish if you whiff.
    
  • 6A super armors through DP, 6A is useful in this match, just cancel it into 4D to keep yourself from being ID'd.
    
  • 2C is +1 always IB it to wing it to your advantage you can pretty much 360/720 or AC anything he does after you IB it.
    

  Long Range

  [*]He can't do anything here but you can VTC and get your spark.

  This match up is far easier than CS1.

  Just react to the overheads and play smart and Ragna will have to be creative to pull a win on us.

  The match up feels 5.5-4.5 in his favor because of his longer ranged faster pokes and mobility.

  Don't get discouraged! This is one of our easier match ups...once you block overheads.

Edited May 20, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Bacon4thetakin]

What's the best way to get out of the corner when he's pressuring the hell out of you? I've found that I have the hardest time getting out of the corner facing Ragna because death spike reaches so far and is so quick (relative to a situation in the corner that is).

[Osuna]

In my experience, if you want out of the corner, you need to hit him. Which means you probably need to yomi Something. Which also means you need to remain aware of his options and appropriate counters to them. Because of collider, a lot of your combos will put him in the corner and therefore get you out. It's sure scary though. I think it'll be easier in time, but I rather spend time in the corner against cs1 litchi at the moment.

[Tong]

This match is seriously bad for Tager, because Ragna is capable of confirming a painful Tager-only combo anywhere, anytime, like 3.2k from any hit confirm.

You'll also get bombarded with 5C 2C chain, at medium range.

The key to this match is watch for Ragna's jump cancels in pressure strings.If hes poking you with 5B/5C w/e, keep them honest with 5A/5C/4D.

And try to not spam backdash on his strings, since Deadspike will start a combo If you're hit airborne.

[A.X.I.S.]

This match up isn't that bad for us.

Nothing we haven't dealt with.

So lets go over the situation shall we:

You are in the corner and Ragna does a dead spike trying to work your primers.

You have 10 primers and you have a move that beats dead spike:

Sledge

He got you in the corner and he is trying to mix you up? Then now would be a great time to learn Ragna's simple mix up so lets break down what Ragna's like to do:

5A/2A>6B

2A>5A whiff 2C

2B>6B

2C>6B

J.C>6B

J.B>2B

Empty jump>2B

Empty jump 6B

Once you learn to react to these consistently as in 80-90% of the time you force Ragna to think outside the box.

5C>2C whiff?

IB the 5C and now he is at the disadvantage! I hope you are holding spark.

Your main pokes to use here (I made a prototype write up why didn't I finish it and post it I don't know.) is gonna be 5A/5B/5C/5D.

5A punishes sloppy approaches.

5B Punishes sloppy approaches as well.

5C is good to let him know you have it and stuff jumps that start out a little too close.

5D is different now but you can use the reduced pull to your advantage, real him in and make him think he has the advantage when he dashes in too close for 5B to be safe...Tager him.

So lets talk more about Ragna because I love how dumb this match up is when you can't block.

Ragna's 5A whiff on us while crouching.

GH Combos without CH only leads to 2kish or so.

ID has less active frames so you can late backdash it easier.

6B is gonna blow you up at first but keep practicing blocking it because once you block it you automatically become that Ragna player's worst nightmare.

I'll have the info posted later...did I miss something!?

@ Tong: Having a character specific combo doesn't make the match up worse.

[Bacon4thetakin]

Yeah, I knew we had options...just haven't spent enough time playing consistently good Ragnas to work on my options. I'll either run into a Ragna who just eats AC all day or pummels me in the corner...there doesn't seem to be an in between :P

But thanks! You speak truth, A.X.I.S. - Just more Practice/Training as usual

[A.X.I.S.]

updated first post.

[Waks]

Also watch out for 2A > grab once he's got you in the corner.

[RaptaThe Dino]

Looks like we can backdash Ragna's 6C, his main tool for punishing our backdash before. I did it a fair amount of times and one time I dodged the first hit and IB'ed the second. So it should be pretty safe.

[Coopa]

Since I play against Ragnas quite often, I think I might be able to give some advice.

Ragnas who burst early in this matchup give you the win. Feel assured that when you see a green burst, you've essentially gained the advantage because now you only have to go through 2 primers till he dies.

Countering Ragna's pokes:

Ragna's 5b loses to your 5b if you react to his DASH. Meaning, you have to have your foot out by the time he throws out 5b to counterhit him. Buffer 5b into a sledge or spark bolt if you have it. If you want to be dirty, 5b counterhit, wait, 360 or 720 him.

Ragna's 5c does not lose to your 5b.

The reason why Ragnas don't 5c more is because it does give them much on block (and I think even on clean hit). But if a Ragna is using 5c against you, try to barrier guard him out of his ideal range. If the Ragna is fishing for counterhits using a blockstring like 5b, 5c, 2c, you do this:

5b (barrier guard), 5c (barrier guard + IB), 2c (5c punish because his 2c will whiff).

Once they are out of their ideal range, you can try to 5c early in anticipation of them being in range. This is hopefully when you've conditioned them to stop 5bing.

In general:

Learn to block his basic mixup.

5a/2a/2b/2c -> 6b. Meaning his jabs, and his low moves (that aren't sweeps) transition to his overhead.

5a/5b/5c/2c -> 6a. Meaning, all his standing normals (non-command normals) lead into his 6a.

You can memorize those transitions and do well.

I believe... they nerfed his transitions from 6a -> X

Meaning, I'm not sure if he can throw out a normal after 6a anymore I'm referring to the bottom of this btw: http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna.html

Edited: Just tested. Correct. 6a no longer has any NORMAL transitions. Meaning, after you see the uppercut, expect a JUMP or a SPECIAL. That is it. If he just stands there and you threw out a 360, he gets punished. He needs to do something.

So, this means after 6a, you are looking for special cancels, like gauntlet hades, or a jump cancel. You want to IB 6a and atomic collider if you think he's going to jump, block or back dash if you think he will special cancel. What I like to do is IB 6a and jump throw, since that really messes with people's heads, but whatever. That's just me.

Back in CS1, when ever Ragna would 2b, and you ib'd it, you could punish it with 360b CLEAN, unless he transitions 2b into inferno divider. I think you can IB 2b now and 720 it clean, but I need to test this myself.

Edited: Tested. Correct. Once you ib his 2b, you can 720 and he's screwed unless he cancels into inferno divider. 2b to anything else, even just block or holding up will get him killed (because 2b cannot be jump canceled).

When Ragna has 50 meter, you can now choose to challenge post knock down him instead of letting him get away with SRK -> Air dash. Time a 6a so it's meaty. Hold 6a and charge, and wait for the srk. If you flash RED let go, because charged 6a puts the opponent into 15 frames of hitstop. If you release the button, your swing comes out at 12 frames after you release the button, so you have a 3 frame window to punish whatever the hell he does--wake up normal, wakeup srk, etc.

Tips and tricks:

When reacting to gauntlet hades, use a sound cue. When he says gauntlet, you should instinctively hold back to block the overhead. This is why when I play against Ragnas, I like to turn the sound up because this sound cue makes it a dead give away, although if they do it mad point blank, I'm not too sure about this. This unfortunately won't help you online.

Okay, so I got homework to do. Have fun.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Coopa

[Bad Fish]

havent posted ina while but her ei go

this is definately one of tagers easier matchups, idk bout you guys but it feels harder, something feels wrong about bding his 5B. mostly i have trouble reading when he will do a 2D, but thats just me, most ragnas i fight never do 6B and if they do i've always punished them for it.

basically i guess i would treat this matchup like before same exact way, just refamiliarize yourself with everything new u got and what ragna got, 5.5-4.5 in ragnas favor is pretty accurate simply cause of his pokes, but its not bad at all.

[Isorropia]

Bunch of snippets from the video thread:

You were playing well axis, but there were a few times where (end of 2nd match of GF in particular, he whiffs a DbD) he stuffed up and you could have 720ed on reaction (But like...5Aed him instead. ). I'm sure you're already kicking yourself for those though. >.>

IB nerf definitely makes fighting rag harder. Oh yeah, also a couple of times after IBing 2C you tried 5A. As you saw, it'll trade with his 6C(1) and if he's awake he gets a combo cos his CH stun is way longer. I've taken to IBing 2C and then doing a 360 that ends at down-back. Ideally it grabs 6C/2D but blocks 3C. But even if you get hit by 3C it's like....eh, he's not getting a combo off it anyway, and if he goes 3C>2D you get a free punish as 2D whiffs (which I saw you did do in that match at one point).

AXIS, pay more attention to your IBs. Leonil threw 2B>5C/2C about a thousand times and it went completely unpunished. When he doesn't go 2B>5B, 2B becomes Ragna's biggest crutch in his blockstrings. If he is willingly throwing 2B and NOT using 5B after, thats a free 720 every time.

Also you didn't really call out any of his jumping out on you or jumping in on you which is vital to this matchup. This ain't CS1 where everything Ragna does leads to 4k, so be a bit more willing to throw shit out :3

I'm also noticing several whiffed 5B's on aerial opponents. Does not seem like a worthwhile venture to me to try and anti air with 5B. Also you landed a throw by the corner and then went for mid screen gadget rapid instead, which could be a preference thing, but I'd certainly at least question it a little.

I have notice this a lot from many Ragna players. They seem to jump a lot when they are applying pressure. And I when someone masters that shit, it's fucking impossible to throw them. I either miss a throw, and eat an awesome combo or I miss and get a little salty. It's not fun. I have also notice it a lot from Tao and Makoto too. How do you fight people applying pressure to Tager when they are also jumping to keep said pressure on, and avoid all our buster attempts? If there is something vague in this post. Please let me know.

Discussion continuing from this point I guess.

[A.X.I.S.]

I wanted to bring this up so I will.

This is from fighting leo.

At certain ranges if Ragna is not magnetized you cannot 360 after 2C>6C as it will CH you without him getting grabbed.

The range is pretty far from what I assume.

I used 5A in the video because most Ragna's would see the 2C get IB'd and rethink their plan.

You can in fact 5B/2B them if I recall after this but one thing for sure you must not poke them unless you see them not going for more gattlings.

I learned this the hard way as you saw.

If Ragna jumps to continue applying pressure then it's your chance to punish since Ragna is throwing himself at risk.

Another thing double jumping for Ragna is asking to get 2C'd.

I didn't do it to Leo because he will wait last second and ID me (He has done this on previous occasions.) but it will usually work on anyone else.

I think I did some good posting that vid.

[tjtj012]

how can i stop ragna from running in and j.C all the time?

I tried AC, 2A, and 2C but it still lost to it

[A.X.I.S.]

I have ways to do it but they are gimmicky as hell.

You're better off blocking it or if he is low then 5C early.