The Newer Florida Thread!

[Jyosua]

#OLDMANSWAG@100%:

This is the problem with everyone getting into games post SF4. Nearly everything that came out before SF4 had actual execution requirements, and minimal to non-existant comeback factors. You couldn't just pick up a character and be good with them in a week. You actually had to guess, learn match ups, and not require crutches to win. If you got your ass beat, YOU GOT YOUR ASS BEAT. But that's how you learned the game. That's how you got better. That's how execution shot through the roof. Jwong, clockwork, daigo, and every other top player you can think of did not become that way overnight. They sustained over 100,000 ass beatings, and kept right on moving, getting better.

Today's competitive gamer has been spoiled rotten. GGAC won't get the proper revival it deserves here because 1)Americans are fucking lazy, 2)There is no comeback mechanic in the game. You have to THINK to win, 3)Like DC said, newbs will get pissed on the first month of the game's release, then instead of trying to learn match ups and characters properly, they'll just run to another game that allows them to mash buttons and win, and 4) AMERICANS ARE FUCKING LAZY. The games that come out nowadays all too often give rewards that the lesser player doesn't deserve.

DC: GGAC is very accessible; DL is an excellent library of information related to that game, and Japan plays that game hardcore to this very day. It's training mode is arguably the best to date, and with online play people will get all the match up experience they need. If someone sucks at GG, it's most likely b/c they can't execute properly to play it, or they totally new to it.

It's really a shame that more people won't play older, more execution intensive games (FUC, GGAC, 3s, MvC2, etc); playing those games will cause your execution in other games to shoot through the roof. If you can block Millia/Magneto, then you can block anything that has come out to date.

I apologize for this Adonis, but saying shit like this is assuming that there aren't players willing to learn the game (like me), and it makes you sound elitist. That's something that scares newbies off these forums and I've seen it happen more than once. I know you're a cool guy and aren't really elitist, but on the internet others might not understand that.

[Guardian]

Sorry dude, but I disagree. I didn't start /really/ improving until I took my hundreds of losses against good players to fights against players closer to my level and worked out better play methods there. Fighting against great players is a good way to discover errors in your playstyle, but it's not a good place to fix them. Good habit is best formed in a place where it won't be interrupted by someone blowing you up constantly.

I'm sorry dude but Romey is right. When you fight players closer to your level, you may win more, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're improving. You improved because you fought all those other players who were better than you. When you went back to fight those people you consider to be "on your level", you had actually already surpassed them, and it allowed you to win more. Playing people who are better than you offers nothing but benefits. You can find those errors in your playstyle like you mentioned, AND get to fix them at the same time. When you fix an error in your playstyle, it's called "making an adjustment". Making on the fly adjustments are cornerstone to every top tier player's playstyle. If someone is blowing you up constantly, you don't have many good habits. You have bad habits. The player is blowing you up by differences in skill level, and exploiting your weaknesses (bad habits). When you fight lower level players, many things that may seem to be "good habits" actually aren't, because the lesser player doesn't know how to counter what you're doing, punish you for doing unsafe strings, etc.

I know a lot of this will probably be hard to swallow because you haven't been playing long enough, but I assure you, and I told you this before, if you would come out to hook ups and play us more often, the amount of times you get blown up will decrease dramatically.

[Jyosua]

I'm sorry dude but Romey is right. When you fight players closer to your level, you may win more, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're improving. You improved because you fought all those other players who were better than you. When you went back to fight those people you consider to be "on your level", you had actually already surpassed them, and it allowed you to win more. Playing people who are better than you offers nothing but benefits. You can find those errors in your playstyle like you mentioned, AND get to fix them at the same time. When you fix an error in your playstyle, it's called "making an adjustment". Making on the fly adjustments are cornerstone to every top tier player's playstyle. If someone is blowing you up constantly, you don't have many good habits. You have bad habits. The player is blowing you up by differences in skill level, and exploiting your weaknesses (bad habits). When you fight lower level players, many things that may seem to be "good habits" actually aren't, because the lesser player doesn't know how to counter what you're doing, punish you for doing unsafe strings, etc.

I know a lot of this will probably be hard to swallow because you haven't been playing long enough, but I assure you, and I told you this before, if you would come out to hook ups and play us more often, the amount of times you get blown up will decrease dramatically.

Give me two weeks, so I can stop letting school get in the way. I'll play with you guys more then. 2 more weeks and I can fucking ditch USF.

That's not entirely true though. Maybe you're just different than me, but if there's something wrong with my pressure strings or execution, when I try to fix them, it takes many times before I finally fix them. I can't fix a corner-combo execution (under pressure of a real match) or pressure string unless I am on offense. And I can't be on offense if my defense is getting blown up by someone who is so used to playing that they barely have to think to quickly react and punish. I need extra time to think in order to get used to doing shit differently, and someone with godlike reactions won't give me the time to practice it enough to get better.

Please understand: I'm not saying playing players better than you is pointless. I'm saying that playing /only/ players better tha you and getting blown up hundreds and hundreds of times is pointless. It'll just make you angry and you'll stop getting anything fruitful from it.

[Guardian]

Give me two weeks, so I can stop letting school get in the way. I'll play with you guys more then. 2 more weeks and I can fucking ditch USF.

That's not entirely true though. Maybe you're just different than me, but if there's something wrong with my pressure strings or execution, when I try to fix them, it takes many times before I finally fix them. I can't fix a corner-combo execution (under pressure of a real match) or pressure string unless I am on offense. And I can't be on offense if my defense is getting blown up by someone who is so used to playing that they barely have to think to quickly react and punish. I need extra time to think in order to get used to doing shit differently, and someone with godlike reactions won't give me the time to practice it enough to get better.

Please understand: I'm not saying playing players better than you is pointless. I'm saying that playing /only/ players better tha you and getting blown up hundreds and hundreds of times is pointless. It'll just make you angry and you'll stop getting anything fruitful from it.

Oh no dude, I TOTALLY understand what you're saying. I understand more than you know, because I've been there. When I first started playing games, I started with Tekken, and I trained with the best in the country at the time. I got beat more times that summer than I can ever remember. But when I went back to Tally for school, I was on the same level as everyone else. You have to learn to control your anger and direct your focus (something I'm STILL learning to do). Execution problems can be fixed in practice mode. Being good at making adjustments doesn't happen overnight, but it does, and will happen the more comfortable you get with high level play and using your character. That's why I have to tell Romey, Sans and everyone else to not watch me in P-mode, b/c I'll sit there and work on my execution and other shit for HOURS. Practice mode is your friend. Know it, learn it, love it.

[Setsuna]

Adonis I've always wanted to ask you questions so I suppose I'll do it now since you're helping Joshua here. I can't find the right words for my questions so please bare with me and I'm sorry if these questions throw you off. How do you approach a new fighter or how do determine what you need to improve on with yourself in a fighter ? I feel like sometimes I'm just wasting time practice various combos, looking up match ups and playing online against players whos skill levels are unknown to me.

Also if you had a completely new player placed in front of you who was just flat out bad at fighting games what advice would you give them, where would you direct them, what fundamentals do you feel are the most important that every player should know ?

[Jyosua]

Honestly dude, everyone's flat-out bad at fighting games at first. I think the progression goes like this:

button masher > learning basic moves > learning game mechanics > learning combos > learning defensive tactics > learning offensive tactics > learning matchups > hammer out bad habits > practice/play

[Romeyurhomey]

Conversation like these makes me wish there was a university that taught "Competitive Gaming Theory & Shenanigans" but one day.

Adonis I've always wanted to ask you questions so I suppose I'll do it now since you're helping Joshua here. I can't find the right words for my questions so please bare with me and I'm sorry if these questions throw you off. How do you approach a new fighter or how do determine what you need to improve on with yourself in a fighter ? I feel like sometimes I'm just wasting time practice various combos, looking up match ups and playing online against players whos skill levels are unknown to me.

Also if you had a completely new player placed in front of you who was just flat out bad at fighting games what advice would you give them, where would you direct them, what fundamentals do you feel are the most important that every player should know ?

I can probably answer some of these if you want my prospective on it. When I look at a new fighter, I try to see what character fits my play style rather than what character looks top tier or broke, but keep in mind characters who look dumb and what can I do about them in terms of matchup. Usually watching Japanese vids help me determine how the game is going to be in America (like how everyone is going to play Chie & Mitsuru in America when P4U comes out). In terms of what you need to improve in fighting games can consist of spacing, pressure, mixups, execution, optimal combos, blocking, matchup/player experience, and punishing. Rather than looking up matchups all the time, try them out in training and see what moves you can punish on block, how to get out of their pressure and what to do at neutral. When you play someone, usually by the first round it should be a warmup to how their playing and if you can adjust in the next round. You should always think about the character first, then the player next (I often forget that myself).

And every player should learn about frame data and theory fighting.

Josh, I am a button masher and I admit it (especially online). Just know what buttons you need to mash correctly.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Romeyurhomey

[Jyosua]

Conversation like these makes me wish there was a university that taught "Competitive Gaming Theory & Shenanigans" but one day.

Honestly, conversations like these make me want to write up a huge tutorial on breaking into the FG genre, and including game-specific information. I also feel like learning to play FGs has been an extra class on my schedule since November. :P

Josh, I am a button masher and I admit it (especially online). Just know what buttons you need to mash correctly.

First of all, I think there's a difference between being "mashy" and being a "button masher". Yeah, they sound essentially the same, but there's a distinct difference between mashing 2A, 5A, or even 2B or 5B when you know you can get away with it and pressing all the buttons on the controller and hoping cool shit happens. The latter is what my girlfriend does, and it drives me fucking insane.

[Setsuna]

I disagree Josh, some people pick these things up pretty quickly ... they may not be as fluent at veterans but they start understanding fighters faster than others who started at the same time as them. For example LunaKage our Noel moderator, I believe he started playing with BBCT (just as I did) and hes much more knowledgeable about them then I am ... I want to know how other peoples mindset works when they are placed with all these things and how they became who they are today. I feel as if Im obviously looking at fighters incorrectly with how little I feel like im progressing.

Thank you Romey for your reply and that brings me to another situation, I don't know how to utilize training mode for match ups ... if possible can you give me one example of how would test something in training mode ?

I don't know frame data or theory fighting ...

[AlxIce]

You guys should write a paper on this. These paragraphs are too long D:

[Jyosua]

I disagree Josh, some people pick these things up pretty quickly ... they may not be as fluent at veterans but they start understanding fighters faster than others who started at the same time as them. For example LunaKage our Noel moderator, I believe he started playing with BBCT (just as I did) and hes much more knowledgeable about them then I am ... I want to know how other peoples mindset works when they are placed with all these things and how they became who they are today. I feel as if Im obviously looking at fighters incorrectly with how little I feel like im progressing.

Thank you Romey for your reply and that brings me to another situation, I don't know how to utilize training mode for match ups ... if possible can you give me one example of how would test something in training mode ?

I don't know frame data or theory fighting ...

That's true, some are naturally better at learning FGs than others, and I think I'm in the camp of people that aren't great at learning them. But that aside, I also don't know how to use training mode for matchups...

Frame data on the other hand, is an invaluable tool. You should learn how to read it. Additionally, if you want to get better, you need to stop relying on one or two moves to start your combos. You seem to find somewhat abuseable things and then rely on those. If someone knows you do that, they can blow you up for it if they know how to punish it.

[Setsuna]

You guys should write a paper on this. These paragraphs are too long D:

I agree with this, I would love to see a massive write up about this

[Zero Shift]

Hey guys, what's up?

Did you know GGAC is coming to XBL/PSN this summer?

[Jyosua]

REALLY? ZOMG!

[M.Song]

Hey guys, what's up?

Did you know GGAC is coming to XBL/PSN this summer?

so anyone in the orlando area gonna be playing?

[Guardian]

Adonis I've always wanted to ask you questions so I suppose I'll do it now since you're helping Joshua here. I can't find the right words for my questions so please bare with me and I'm sorry if these questions throw you off. How do you approach a new fighter or how do determine what you need to improve on with yourself in a fighter ? I feel like sometimes I'm just wasting time practice various combos, looking up match ups and playing online against players whos skill levels are unknown to me.

Also if you had a completely new player placed in front of you who was just flat out bad at fighting games what advice would you give them, where would you direct them, what fundamentals do you feel are the most important that every player should know ?

Whenever I play a game for the first time, the first thing I do is look at the character moves (specials, normals, etc). I will usually go through 75-85% of the cast within the first week of playing. After that, I will play WHOEVER I FIND THE MOST FUN. I cannot stress this point enough. Playing and winning is fun, but if you're not having fun using the character, you won't be motivated to get better.

After I find the fun character, I work on combos. I think there are two schools of thought on this. A friend of mine thought it was better to learn frame traps and mixups first, then combos. I prefer to learn combos. Learning combos and optimizing them gives you many advantages. You get to see what your big damage starters are, how your character's combo mechanics work, how practical the combos will be to do in the heat of a match, and what the system mechanics allow (which will USUALLY be consistent throughout the cast). Your execution in the game will increase from this, and you'll get muscle memory for those tricky situational combos. From there, you can spread into learning setups for your big damage starters, situational combos, and oki setups. It's one thing to have 1000 tricks and get 10% dmg per trick, but it's an entirely different game when you hit someone for 40-50% of their life with one simple starter. That gives your opponent a degree of fear because they know that when you hit them, IT WILL HURT.

After I've figured out combos (which is a constantly evolving process; NEVER stop practicing and optimizing combos), I'll work on poke spacing and mix ups. The first thing I now look for, especially in anime games, is a fuzzy guard or instant overhead. Other than it being one of the best mix ups in fighting game history that NO ONE ON THE PLANET can block consistently, it gives you a tool for surprising an opponent. Every character has combos off of lows, so that is pretty much inconsequential. If I find one, I'll see how practical it is (see valk). If not practical (and this pretty much goes for most mixups), then I'll see if there are situations I can set up that make it practical. Frame traps are going the way of the dodo nowadays, so I tend to find those by experience or when frame data drops.

Lastly, I'll find a training partner. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. YOU CAN'T GET BETTER WITHOUT ONE. When I say training partner, I mean more than just someone to play matches with. I mean someone you can try stuff out with, practice strats, etc. I found out 2 weeks after valk was released in CS1 that everyone's 2/5A destroys wolf. This is because me and a friend traded ideas, and tested out various mixups. You can do this now with the recording feature in BB, but this feature may not always be present in all fighting game practice modes. Things like this can help you find out if something is legit or not, if a combo can be teched, if your tech trap setup is legit, etc.

From this point I'll consider myself adequately versed in the character and go to play matches, usually with a high degree of success.

If approached with a person who isn't that great at FGs, I'll get them to work on beginner mechanics and aspects (walking, dashing, jumping, BLOCKING, etc). After that, try normals and specials. See how comfortable they are with very basic shit before you move on to simple combos and strats. Things like frame traps, spacing, and match up specific moves can be overwhelming for someone new to FGs. Also, this is the group that you don't want to beat the shit out of when they first start. You don't want them to quit within the first few days. Play to their level a bit, encourage them, and LET THEM KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING WRONG. That should be something that happens at any level, but with new people its even more essential.

I wish I could teach a class on fighting game theory. It'd be really interesting from any point of view.

[Jyosua]

Whenever I play a game for the first time, the first thing I do is look at the character moves (specials, normals, etc). I will usually go through 75-85% of the cast within the first week of playing. After that, I will play WHOEVER I FIND THE MOST FUN. I cannot stress this point enough. Playing and winning is fun, but if you're not having fun using the character, you won't be motivated to get better.

After I find the fun character, I work on combos. I think there are two schools of thought on this. A friend of mine thought it was better to learn frame traps and mixups first, then combos. I prefer to learn combos. Learning combos and optimizing them gives you many advantages. You get to see what your big damage starters are, how your character's combo mechanics work, how practical the combos will be to do in the heat of a match, and what the system mechanics allow (which will USUALLY be consistent throughout the cast). Your execution in the game will increase from this, and you'll get muscle memory for those tricky situational combos. From there, you can spread into learning setups for your big damage starters, situational combos, and oki setups. It's one thing to have 1000 tricks and get 10% dmg per trick, but it's an entirely different game when you hit someone for 40-50% of their life with one simple starter. That gives your opponent a degree of fear because they know that when you hit them, IT WILL HURT.

After I've figured out combos (which is a constantly evolving process; NEVER stop practicing and optimizing combos), I'll work on poke spacing and mix ups. The first thing I now look for, especially in anime games, is a fuzzy guard or instant overhead. Other than it being one of the best mix ups in fighting game history that NO ONE ON THE PLANET can block consistently, it gives you a tool for surprising an opponent. Every character has combos off of lows, so that is pretty much inconsequential. If I find one, I'll see how practical it is (see valk). If not practical (and this pretty much goes for most mixups), then I'll see if there are situations I can set up that make it practical. Frame traps are going the way of the dodo nowadays, so I tend to find those by experience or when frame data drops.

Lastly, I'll find a training partner. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. YOU CAN'T GET BETTER WITHOUT ONE. When I say training partner, I mean more than just someone to play matches with. I mean someone you can try stuff out with, practice strats, etc. I found out 2 weeks after valk was released in CS1 that everyone's 2/5A destroys wolf. This is because me and a friend traded ideas, and tested out various mixups. You can do this now with the recording feature in BB, but this feature may not always be present in all fighting game practice modes. Things like this can help you find out if something is legit or not, if a combo can be teched, if your tech trap setup is legit, etc.

From this point I'll consider myself adequately versed in the character and go to play matches, usually with a high degree of success.

If approached with a person who isn't that great at FGs, I'll get them to work on beginner mechanics and aspects (walking, dashing, jumping, BLOCKING, etc). After that, try normals and specials. See how comfortable they are with very basic shit before you move on to simple combos and strats. Things like frame traps, spacing, and match up specific moves can be overwhelming for someone new to FGs. Also, this is the group that you don't want to beat the shit out of when they first start. You don't want them to quit within the first few days. Play to their level a bit, encourage them, and LET THEM KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING WRONG. That should be something that happens at any level, but with new people its even more essential.

I wish I could teach a class on fighting game theory. It'd be really interesting from any point of view.

On the topic of combos or mixup first: I pick combos. Pretty much for the reasons you stated. I think it's easier to figure out mixup once you know a bit of how the character operates via combos.

As far as training partners... that's something I've desired for the while. I know there's the training dummy record option, but it's just not as efficient as trying stuff out against a person, nor as fun. Plus, like you said, not all games have it.

Blocking I think is the single most important thing for a beginner to learn. I noticed a huge level in improvement once I started blocking properly. Now I've gotten into the bad habit of using barrier too much though... I'm working on getting out of that habit.

Also, this is the group that you don't want to beat the shit out of when they first start.

See, that's what I say as well, and others are like "Nooooo, just wail on them and they'll get better". That's fucking bullshit. There's nothing more discouraging then getting on a game your first day to just be obliterated by everyone. It's enough to make many people quite straight away, and if they don't right away, continued abuse will cause them to quit eventually. But giving feedback is definitely important. The first thing I tell other people who I get to try BB is "Block! You have to block!". The second thing is "Block low! And then watch out for overheads!". I generally don't throw a ton of mixup at someone who first starts.

[DC]

WHAT HAVE I DONE

[Jyosua]

WHAT HAVE I DONE

Sparked thoughtful and insightful discussion. How dare you!?

[AlxIce]

so anyone in the orlando area gonna be playing?

P. sure Deltona is gonna go hard with this game due to the fact we have Jamel's Hsien Jo's hype train, and May.

[M.Song]

P. sure Deltona is gonna go hard with this game due to the fact we have Jamel's Hsien Jo's hype train, and May.

cool well i'm actually from lake mary so that's kinda sorta-ish closer than going to orlando

[Zero Shift]

so anyone in the orlando area gonna be playing?

I will.

No lie, but I've been wanting to play GG for some years now, but never got around to buying AC+ on PS2. I'll most likely be dropping Blazblue for this when it releases (I'll get back into Blazblue when they release the third game, until then, I'll just mess around with it here and there). I played a bit back in the GGX2 days, nothing tournament worthy considering I was like 12 years old at the time, but I have some basic knowledge of it down and know what most of the characters can do, so it's a start.

[DC]

Because you know, you can't play two games at once or anything.

Edit: Fuggit, I'm dropping BB for Smash Bros Melee.

[2link121]

hahaha, that'll be the day. I'd love to see you scrubbing it up in that.

[Zero Shift]

Because you know, you can't play two games at once or anything.

Edit: Fuggit, I'm dropping BB for Smash Bros Melee.

Poor choice of words lol. I didn't mean drop as in quit BB for it, meant it as in I'll be playing GG more often.