[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[WUT]

I normally don't like spending Charge on oki either, as I said. However, my midscreen oki is really lacking against people that regularly play HOS. Cross-up GB just doesn't work very well once people are used to it, nor does 2D xx Lvl1 GB, high/low. So I had to throw in a curve ball that just so happens to play out rather nicely. I've used it against a few guys I casual with, where it worked well enough. And I've messed around with the set up in training mode, fleshing out some of the finer points. All in all I think it's really viable, especially considering people who don't play against HOS often will be in for a real treat ("damn there's THAT much guard stun?") The only situation I'm on the fence over is the AC after Lvl2 GB. While I think that's the scenario most likely to work out in your favor, seeing as AC = oh snap time to punish, the window for screwing up is too small. If they IB your Lvl2 GB then you can only get +28F at max, meaning they have a 5F window to throw you in that same situation, assuming optimum conditions. That's not cool.

[Kamui Moon]

that shit sounds hot Ryan-Bill. Zero Flame had an oki setup for the second pillar off of a lv3 BRP, but getting that shit off of sweep makes it somewhat viable. +32 with only lv2 just sounds too godlike. I've been using lv1 BRP a lot more recently, and it's pretty fucking retarded how many people eat lv1 BRP into Gold Burst.

[Hintalove]

The only time I do gb ac frc lv2 gb is when I some how forget to hold down d after the first charge. I don't know why, probably because people see the ac frc like you said and panic to punish, but 2d gb ac frc lv1 gb hits a decent ammount on most people, especially deeper into the set like 3rd roundish. I do how ever some times throw a meaty lv2 gb on my opponent if I don't have time to do something else but I want to have some pressure(like trying to start a comeback off an awkward kd). Ironically usually after that I just do another gb and frc it to open up another guessing game. But it sounds like your set up has some merit though. If you can really put them in 32 frames of block stun consistantly. The only problem is at the end of the day, you're still using charge to recreate the effect of them getting up into okizeme(even though they just did get up right before). The key seeling points of it would be the confusion factor and not really give you the opportunity to do something really hard to block. You didn't mention it in your post, and I can't imagine off the top of my head, but do you have time to jump? Maybe even a jump they would be forced to block? Last random note... I was messing around with that set up and you can do 2d cc 5k as a block string it looks like(w/ running momentum of course).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

That makes sense. Perfect CC 2D is +3 on block, 5K hits on frame 3. You have to be all sorts of perfect, but that's pretty much guaranteed.

[reaVer]

Isn't the whole idea behind higher level GBs to stay in low profile for longer thus evading some slower (high) moves? Anyways, a setup KZO tried on isa, which I've tried, yet failed to replicate is l1GB FRC in the corner and using the flame to cover your low vs overhead mixup. I've also been looking for fuzzy guard setups but the CPU just evades them cleanly, the guy I play with also knows that dashing forward at the right instant just completely evades my fuzzy guard and even makes me throw punishable.

[WUT]

The only time I do gb ac frc lv2 gb is when I some how forget to hold down d after the first charge. I don't know why, probably because people see the ac frc like you said and panic to punish, but 2d gb ac frc lv1 gb hits a decent ammount on most people, especially deeper into the set like 3rd roundish. I do how ever some times throw a meaty lv2 gb on my opponent if I don't have time to do something else but I want to have some pressure(like trying to start a comeback off an awkward kd). Ironically usually after that I just do another gb and frc it to open up another guessing game.

I'm a big fan of gb ac frc lv1 gb myself, for the same reason gb ac frc lv2 gb is nice: they see ac and want to punish. Not spending Charge in that situation is great as well, seeing as if they guard the second gb you can AC it and pretty much have lv3 from a forced guard. Rather tasty.

But it sounds like your set up has some merit though. If you can really put them in 32 frames of block stun consistantly. The only problem is at the end of the day, you're still using charge to recreate the effect of them getting up into okizeme(even though they just did get up right before).

Yeah, aside from the potential free AC, at which point you're only spending 20% Charge, a decent trade.

The key seeling points of it would be the confusion factor and not really give you the opportunity to do something really hard to block.

Which is exactly why I wanted to do it. Midscreen oki tends to be easy to react to. The extra guard stun and awkward situation creates new opportunities.

You didn't mention it in your post, and I can't imagine off the top of my head, but do you have time to jump? Maybe even a jump they would be forced to block?

4F of jump startup. If you 1F jump you're in the same position as 6K.

EDIT: The saddest of sadfaces: You can't get +32 on guard. 50F (total recovery) - 23 (startup) - 17 (active frames for one hit + pause in between + 1 frame for the second hit connecting) = 10F, added to the +12 it gets already = +22F max, +18 if IB'd. All that deliciousness is ruined. 5D is still safe, and 2HS has a 1F window to invincible/backdash out (can't be thrown by then). Knew that math was too good to be true.

EDIT2: reaVer: Who said moves were reserved for only one use? Is Fafnir simply your low option, or is it your low option/mid-range counterpoke with low invincibility that deals great damage? Is Lvl2 BRP just a high, or is it a high that is foot invincible and then airborne, along with knockdown potential? GB can be used for a variety of things (AA, oki, combos); it doesn't have to have only one application.

[Nakkiel]

Is Lvl2 BRP just a high, or is it a high that is foot invincible and then airborne, along with knockdown potential?

Or is level 3 a silly tech trap?

That level 2 GB sounds pretty nice. I usually don't use it most of the time unless I've trained my opponent to forget that there's a second flare. I've been scoring a lot of CHs off the second hit lately from doing that.

The only other time I use it is on people with big hitboxes that when used in the corner all the flares will connect. Watching your opponent go "WTF" because they're getting sucked in and out of the corner is pretty funny, especially when it winds up guard breaking from them blocking the wrong way.

+22 is still good though, I'll be trying things out with that in real matches just for you

[reaVer]

EDIT2: reaVer: Who said moves were reserved for only one use?

This one is difficult to answer because if the level is high enough you can summerize everything into 'one use'. (For example "to hit the opponent"). Anyways, I hope I'm on the same level when responding to these questions below:

Is Fafnir simply your low option, or is it your low option/mid-range counterpoke with low invincibility that deals great damage?

Here I'm gonna restate again that the bloody 5H sIAD.P-* is not guaranteed. Sure you can get it against Slayer most of the time, as with Testament and some other characters. Characters like Dizzy and Eddie have magic evasion and at that point you can actually get yourself fucked over. So for a low I don't really use it unless I can get a dustloop out of it, which is right next to the opponent.

The primary reason I use that move is for it's launcher properties, especially at CH. And it wouldn't really matter to me whether that move was instant overhead, instant low or instant any, heck he can be moonwalking for all I care, but it launches the opponent and that's what I want, the low part is only a plus.

Is Lvl2 BRP just a high, or is it a high that is foot invincible and then airborne, along with knockdown potential?

Using l2BRP for foot invincibility purpose is a very poor means to deliver damage to your opponent. If you feel your opponent is gonna poke at your feet you either fafnir or 2H because those 2 carry the same properties and are likely to CH in that situation resulting in PAIN. To me the feet invincibility is a property that makes BRP work, this is with a lot of OS's normals, they all have some sort of invincibility guarding OS from the default 'mash to get out' responses.

GB can be used for a variety of things (AA, oki, combos); it doesn't have to have only one application.

No, I said that higher levels of GB served the purpose of staying in lower profile for longer and that way avoid moves. I'm also not quite sure what you want with 22F in comparison to the 9F you get from l1. Sure your opponent can mash out with the l1 version, but that's where good CH setups are born:p

[Nakkiel]

Here I'm gonna restate again that the bloody 5H sIAD.P-* is not guaranteed.

But you're wrong. Please explain to me how you aren't with great detail and keep in mind that I can land the combo 100% on any character in the whole cast. Please. Because the only conclusion I can think of is that you're catching them at the wrong height and you're not doing the combo quickly enough. Or you're catching them from the max range of 2S, which is too far away.

[reaVer]

But you're wrong. Please explain to me how you aren't with great detail and keep in mind that I can land the combo 100% on any character in the whole cast. Please. Because the only conclusion I can think of is that you're catching them at the wrong height and you're not doing the combo quickly enough. Or you're catching them from the max range of 2S, which is too far away.

So you can land that combo against Johnny? I want a vid of that. Furthermore, you could be landing that combo 100% in training mode, that I don't care about, I've actually gotten conflicting results between training mode and casual/match play. The 2S maxrange issue is something you can't actually predict while in a match unless you know one of the other parameters that actually causes you to hit 2S at maxrange at best and from that point some characters can also evande the 5H in some cases and some heights. The same way getting the opponent's height right in matchplay is simply a pain(something that can be trained against, but still). I basically got 2 versions because I can't seem to get 1956 to the right going for me for some reason. But to the left I got the tightest execution on that combo and there CH 2D CC 2S5H sIAD.P-H has a decent chance of failure against Eddie. On Slayer that combo hits fairly consistent though.

[WUT]

Now you're just arguing for the sake of argument.

The primary reason I use that move is for it's launcher properties, especially at CH. And it wouldn't really matter to me whether that move was instant overhead, instant low or instant any, heck he can be moonwalking for all I care, but it launches the opponent and that's what I want, the low part is only a plus.

And the low invincibility is irrelevant? If it allows for a launch because they poked low and couldn't interrupt it, along with the fact that it launches on hit or CH, then it has more than one use. If Fafnir wasn't low invincible and a low hit itself it wouldn't be nearly as amazing as it is. Just because you use it only for a launch doesn't mean it can't be used for something else.

Using l2BRP for foot invincibility purpose is a very poor means to deliver damage to your opponent. If you feel your opponent is gonna poke at your feet you either fafnir or 2H because those 2 carry the same properties and are likely to CH in that situation resulting in PAIN. To me the feet invincibility is a property that makes BRP work, this is with a lot of OS's normals, they all have some sort of invincibility guarding OS from the default 'mash to get out' responses.

There's also the fact that you may not always have 25%, and 2HS isn't low invincible at startup. BRP "works" because it's a high AND it's low invincible; two properties that give it different uses for different situations.

No, I said that higher levels of GB served the purpose of staying in lower profile for longer and that way avoid moves. I'm also not quite sure what you want with 22F in comparison to the 9F you get from l1. Sure your opponent can mash out with the l1 version, but that's where good CH setups are born:p

+22F = 5D they can't poke out of/backdash, 2HS they HAVE to backdash or invincible to punish. Lvl2 pulls them right into you for other mix-up shenanigans, whereas they can escape after guarding a Lvl1 GB because you can't reach them in time. Even Fafnir and 5S(f) can't stop them from escaping after a Lvl1 GB. You lose control if you opponent guards a 2D xx Lvl1 GB, Lvl1 GB setup unless you FRC or AC FRC, simple as that.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I'd really like to help with the whole GB scenario, but the frame data for those moves makes zero sense.

[Tsak]

I'd really like to help with the whole GB scenario, but the frame data for those moves makes zero sense.

im in this predicament as well

[reaVer]

Now you're just arguing for the sake of argument.

No I'm not and I actually tried to explain my point proper but I failed it seems.

And the low invincibility is irrelevant? If it allows for a launch because they poked low and couldn't interrupt it, along with the fact that it launches on hit or CH, then it has more than one use. If Fafnir wasn't low invincible and a low hit itself it wouldn't be nearly as amazing as it is. Just because you use it only for a launch doesn't mean it can't be used for something else.

As I mentioned with the BRP, the invincibility is to make the move work. If people grow brains and start poking you high that thing simply won't cut it anymore. The invincibility is nice, no argument there, but it's simply not the reason to use the move. If you want just feet invincibility you can go with 2H or jump.

There's also the fact that you may not always have 25%, and 2HS isn't low invincible at startup. BRP "works" because it's a high AND it's low invincible; two properties that give it different uses for different situations.

That's why you 'plan' 2H a bit ahead, if you were using fafnir instead you'd plan earlier, but you'd still plan the move. It's not like "WHOOPs oh, hey counter!". Correct, the BRP works because it's high and being low invincible, but that's the whole point I was trying to make, you attempt an overhead, and the invincibillity makes sure you don't get bullshat out of it(due to it's not comboing nature). If it were a noninvincible BRP you'd get 2Ps, 2Ss and the like to stop that move.

+22F = 5D they can't poke out of/backdash, 2HS they HAVE to backdash or invincible to punish. Lvl2 pulls them right into you for other mix-up shenanigans, whereas they can escape after guarding a Lvl1 GB because you can't reach them in time. Even Fafnir and 5S(f) can't stop them from escaping after a Lvl1 GB. You lose control if you opponent guards a 2D xx Lvl1 GB, Lvl1 GB setup unless you FRC or AC FRC, simple as that.

First of all, can't they just wakeup backdash because that pillar connects really late? Second, I can understand why it seems tempting, but offering your opponent a chance to stop you gives you a CH fafnir setup and a CH j.H setup which both do more damage than the followups to 5D and 2H RC(and remember that 5D is -6 on guard, so some characters(if not most) can even punish it).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I should mention that 2HS is horrible for avoiding lows. Yes, it has lower body invincibility, but it doesn't start until 14 frames in. It doesn't matter how far ahead you plan the move, nobody with a brain is gonna eat a CH from that move for trying to attack you low. Fafnir also doesn't need the low invincibility to "work" properly. It would still be a great move without it (shit, it would be great even if it didn't hit low). Of course, if it didn't have it, that would mean you wouldn't have that convenient way to counter meaty Slide Heads on wakeup, which is just one example of the move having multiple uses thanks to its unique properties. Wakeup backdash on GB...if it's being done meaty, it doesn't matter how late the pillar hits. The point is to get the pillar to connect on its last active frame, which would mean it would already be active when you're getting up. Backdashing it might still be possible, but difficult due to the whole HOS switching sides on you thing. And yes, offering your opponent a chance to stop you gives you CH setups. But if you're fighting a defensive opponent, they won't fall for a CH setup, they'll just get away and you have to chase them down again. It's a choice between either maintaining control of your position in the match or taking a risk for a bigger reward.

[Nakkiel]

So you can land that combo against Johnny? I want a vid of that. Furthermore, you could be landing that combo 100% in training mode, that I don't care about, I've actually gotten conflicting results between training mode and casual/match play. The 2S maxrange issue is something you can't actually predict while in a match unless you know one of the other parameters that actually causes you to hit 2S at maxrange at best and from that point some characters can also evande the 5H in some cases and some heights. The same way getting the opponent's height right in matchplay is simply a pain(something that can be trained against, but still). I basically got 2 versions because I can't seem to get 1956 to the right going for me for some reason. But to the left I got the tightest execution on that combo and there CH 2D CC 2S5H sIAD.P-H has a decent chance of failure against Eddie. On Slayer that combo hits fairly consistent though.

Doing the combo off of CH 2D CC is going to result in a different launch and spacing than say, off of fafnir.

I can do it 100% in casuals. The only time I DON'T get it is when I fuck up my sjIAD. They don't drop out of the j.P or the follow up.

Yes I can do it on Johnny. Sure it has a different timing than the other cast but that's why there's different characters in the game, so everything isn't mindless and the same thing over and over.

If they're too low for j.P, you need to do 5K 5S 5HS instead of 2S 5HS.

Maybe I just have better execution or something but you're making it sound a lot harder than it really is. Notice how no one is agreeing with the difficulty of this combo. It's a bread and butter for a reason.

[Hintalove]

lol, seems like every other post is about sjiad combos these days:kitty:

How to do the combo to Johnny:

1. What ever launch > 2s 5h regular IAD jp... what ever you want

2. What ever launch > dashing c.s f.s 5h sjIAD jp... what ever(5k might work in the place of the first slash because it's only purpose is to lift johnny higher)

You can use the same combos on Robo and Pot if you have trouble with them too. If you hit with a ch2d when you have dash momentum(which is a lot of the time) you dont even have to do that combo. You can just straight up do 5s5h sjs h d, and in the corner you can even do dashing 5s > dloop. Hell, if you're so worried about the sjiad combo you can even do ch2d into gb, or even fafnir. Both will be dloopable on all but the lighter characters.

Reaver, if your opponent is walking forward out of your fuzzies, that means your meaty isn't actually meaty. I also suffer from this problem, especially now that ES and Honnou both have stumbled upon that solution, but as long as you're not fighting faust it can be resolved just by doing a stricter meaty. It's easy to fuck it up though if you are used to timing things to be a safe jump, and you didn't jump soon enough.

On a random note, I love it when these forums are active, even if it is just this months round of reaver bashing

edit: Can we start an Evo count off? Who is gonna make it out? I know Frank the Tank came last year Tit so you should just hitch up with him! Is the imfamous Ryan-Bill coming? Maybe his nerves have been hardened over this last year and he can truly unleash now in tournament settings. Juicy G is MIA but one can hope...

MissedFRC, the rest of your crew is going so you should too! Zany mirror matches were fun that time you guys came down to ptown, sucks I was half passed out throughout the day. Kamui? I don't even know where you're from

Reaver, this could be the ultimate chance to show us all, once and for all, that SVlv1 is infact the ultimate move in GGdom.

[Nakkiel]

I'm really set on going. I've been hunting for a job like a pack of hungry wolves I've got an interview tomorrow morning and I'm hoping it goes over well. I only need 2 weeks. Just 2 weeks of a damn job I'm bringing a resume and some recent test scores I got that were in the top national 10% of graduating seniors so I'm hoping that scores me some points.

[reaVer]

I should mention that 2HS is horrible for avoiding lows. Yes, it has lower body invincibility, but it doesn't start until 14 frames in. It doesn't matter how far ahead you plan the move, nobody with a brain is gonna eat a CH from that move for trying to attack you low.

You'd be surprised(and no, this isn't a KZO trade, it's actually 0 that knows where to put these things in some moments)

Doing the combo off of CH 2D CC is going to result in a different launch and spacing than say, off of fafnir.

I can do it 100% in casuals. The only time I DON'T get it is when I fuck up my sjIAD. They don't drop out of the j.P or the follow up.

Yes I can do it on Johnny. Sure it has a different timing than the other cast but that's why there's different characters in the game, so everything isn't mindless and the same thing over and over.

If they're too low for j.P, you need to do 5K 5S 5HS instead of 2S 5HS.

Maybe I just have better execution or something but you're making it sound a lot harder than it really is. Notice how no one is agreeing with the difficulty of this combo. It's a bread and butter for a reason.

Look, it's not like I can't hit it, the problem is if you were forced to do it 100 times and you're doing it from max sweep range, there's no telling where you end up vs your opponent and your opponent can literally be right next to your j.P attackbox when you go for the IAD. At the same time doing 2S5H sIAD.P-H SV after a close range 2D is stupid because 5S5H sj.S-H-D BRP does more damage, gains you charge and gives better positioning. The same way, if you hit fafnir that close you can go for 66S j.H-D,dj.P-H SV doing more damage and having less to worry about. Not to mention that if you're in the corner with those ranges a dustloop is prefered.

lol, seems like every other post is about sjiad combos these days:kitty:

How to do the combo to Johnny:

1. What ever launch > 2s 5h regular IAD jp... what ever you want

2. What ever launch > dashing c.s f.s 5h sjIAD jp... what ever(5k might work in the place of the first slash because it's only purpose is to lift johnny higher)

I do 2S5H IAD.P-S-K SV vs Johnny and Robo-Ky. It comes awfully close to sIAD.P-H SV in damage and actually hits those 2.

Reaver, if your opponent is walking forward out of your fuzzies, that means your meaty isn't actually meaty. I also suffer from this problem, especially now that ES and Honnou both have stumbled upon that solution, but as long as you're not fighting faust it can be resolved just by doing a stricter meaty. It's easy to fuck it up though if you are used to timing things to be a safe jump, and you didn't jump soon enough.

I'm trying to do it outside the meaty situation rather than just as a meaty so that I don't have to rely on a knockdown to get my game going.

On a random note, I love it when these forums are active, even if it is just this months round of reaver bashing

Reaver, this could be the ultimate chance to show us all, once and for all, that SVlv1 is infact the ultimate move in GGdom.

lol, never said it was the ultimate move. But anyways, last year they had some Battle Of Destiny in the UK which gave the winner free EVO tickets. Unfortunately, I see no traces of them trying that again this year. Being broke and doing an internship that doesn't pay me anything means I won't have the money to go. So; sorry:/

[LM_Akira]

But anyways, last year they had some Battle Of Destiny in the UK which gave the winner free EVO tickets. Unfortunately, I see no traces of them trying that again this year. Being broke and doing an internship that doesn't pay me anything means I won't have the money to go. So; sorry:/

Nope that was a one-off gig I'm afraid, to tie into Justin Wong coming over for the event (plus we got sponsorship from Capcom Europe I believe too).

However we do have SVB 2009 http://www.supervsbattle.com/ lined up for September and AC is guaranteed to be there.

I would get involved with all this talk currently.....but I'm too busy eating popcorn and reading thru these posts

Oh but one thing, talk of landing hj.IAD combos 100%, I dunno maybe I could see someone doing this from exactly the same setup/situation every time but the point is, during a match this combo does vary depending on what you use to start it with......and 0 and Sanma fuck it up anyway, so I don't lose too much sleep over the fact I can't land it every single time from every single situation during a match.

[WUT]

I've never found Evo to be worth the trip. The only real traveling plans I have at the moment are for Arcade UFO's SBO qualifier.

[Hintalove]

How is evo not worth the trip? The best of the best(imo) will be there. Biggest cash prize pot GG tourney going down this year(I think..). Plenty of time for amazing casuals all day/night long. Whats not to love? I also think that american/foreign sbo shots are a sham, but I guess they are the best way to promote gg over seas

[WUT]

How is evo not worth the trip? The best of the best(imo) will be there. Biggest cash prize pot GG tourney going down this year(I think..). Plenty of time for amazing casuals all day/night long.

Whats not to love?

FR does the same thing, and it's closer (meaning cheaper). Cash prize doesn't concern me because I never win anyhow. I just go for the casuals, in all honesty. Can't get better without travelling.

I also think that american/foreign sbo shots are a sham, but I guess they are the best way to promote gg over seas

Not that I think I'd do very well at SBO, but a free plane ticket and a week watching/playing serious competition? That's so worth it.

[Kamui Moon]

Kamui? I don't even know where you're from

Ohio, lol. I'll be hitting sweet combos at evo north, but I severely lack the funds to get to Vegas.

[WUT]

While I'm at it I guess I should just post a few some more oki tricks I've been messing with: Gatling to 2D... - xx CC, Lvl1 GB (you recover before them for reversal/throw bait fun times ). - xx Lvl1 GB, AC FRC, jump toward opponent, j.K (cross-up. Works on the fatties, Pot, Johnny, Testament). - xx CC, run them to ALMOST the corner, dash jump j.K (crosses up just like a dashing Lvl3 BRP in the same situation, you just have to be a little closer to the corner). My personal favorite is the almost corner j.K. Following up with a 5K xx Lvl2 BHB, Fafnir, dashing 2S, 5HS SJ IAD j.P, j.HS xx Lvl# SV yields ~180 damage. Also, dunno if this is old news or not, but Fafnir will link after a Lvl2 BHB even without the staggering hit (IE near max range Lvl2 BHB). This can still lead to a dashing 2S, 5HS SJ IAD combo on certain characters.